ritides
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by ritides on Mar 12, 2017 19:01:55 GMT
Rask schmask ; ) (there, my reasoned argument wins the day!)
Maelok solves most of those issues for them too right (but buffing their ARM instead of hiding them on approach, and only giving pathfinder via his incorporeal on feat turn)? I just can't stand playing Rask, I've tried so many times and it's just not fun for me!
Can I also just say, man it's sweet to have like at least a quarter of the band back together over here... folks need to keep spreading the word, I love being able to talk Minions with actual Minions players = )
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Post by MessOfMinions on Mar 12, 2017 19:45:11 GMT
Yeah man, perfectly reasonable! I just got done a game with said list into kromac1, which was not the greatest matchup, rask died (my own fault really). But man do those posse tank hard! I need more games before I say for sure that I'll be rocking 4 max posse in the list, but it's definitely a difficult thing for your opponent to deal with. The biggest problem I had into the matchup was that I wasn't able to use my feat to protect my army properly since he had warpath and could always get to at least one posse member. If I didn't do that he would of been able to camp the two zones(outflank) easily and just keep me out over time. I was able to hold my own however and things were starting to swing my way until the aforementioned assaination by a warpathed wold wyrd. So oh well, will report back next week after some more games!
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Post by Gaston on Mar 12, 2017 20:55:26 GMT
Can I also just say, man it's sweet to have like at least a quarter of the band back together over here... folks need to keep spreading the word, I love being able to talk Minions with actual Minions players = ) Huh? This isn't the Skorne forum???
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Post by Gaston on Mar 12, 2017 20:55:42 GMT
Hey All, I’ve been taking my time to digest the new theme force spoilers, and figured I’d share my knee jerk reactions. Naturally these are without any gameplay experience backing them up, so they may change. And be wrong. Or totally right. I should post this on Facebook so no one will ever be able to find it after a week…
Overall, I’d rate the theme as very solid. The benefits are meaningful and restrictions reasonable, but it does not bring a newness so much as it returns a gameplay style that had been lost in the edition transition. And that is perfectly fine.
When I look at the theme, I break it down into three benefits. First, Raluk and the jacks is not a benefit, they just threw it in there to fix a rules problem, and unless a new hot jack gets released for Mercenaries, it is difficult to see taking Raluk in a serious list. I have mapped out all the jacks, and we can have that debate in a different thread, but even Hungerford said he was more for fun and flavor than competition (paraphrasing). Secondly, I essentially lump the two benefits for the Posse into a single “Posse benefit”. This is the most significant part of the theme force, so I’ll leave that for now, as most of the rest of this book is about that. The final two benefits are increased deployment and free solos/Snappers. THESE ARE SIGNIFICANT. Just because the Posse got the heat lamp shown on their reptilian butts doesn’t mean that these two benefits should be ignored. Gatorman support is arranged such that it provides benefits on a per unit/model basis, encouraging players to take multiples of Mist Speakers or Witch Docs. Getting these for free alleviates a huge support cost issue that Blindwater can experience. Additionally, it opens up a significant amount of list building design space (went there) and notice that you are not limited to non-character solos Thornfall style. When you make models free, you re-evaluate their purpose. Bull Snappers are pants for 5 points, but at 0, I can now afford to have a baby-sitter that grants Jaga +4 Arm while the adult beasts go play. Thrullgs become significantly more interesting at 0 points, when at 6 points they don’t get a second look.
One of the reasons I am focusing on the other two benefits is that it feeds into how I want to construct lists and whether or not I will take them in theme. I remain suspicious that this buff is enough to make GMP attractive with casters who do not support/deliver them. Example, if Brigands shoot Posse that they have Prey’d, previously it took two shots to kill one Gator. Now with the extra boxes, it takes two shots to kill one Gator. And then they Reposition back out of range. And let’s not kid ourselves, if people are going to take ranged units, they are going to take them in armies that support that style. 3 Pow 12 ranged hits on average kill an un-aided Posse member. In order to maximize the buffs to Posse, they need to be engaged, and to do that, you’ll want a delivery mechanism, which not every caster provides. Additionally, there are some casters that generally build lists with just one unit (example: Calaban lists up to this point had just one unit for Occultation). If you’re only going down the single unit road, there simply aren’t enough theme benefits to actually be worthwhile. Finally, some casters are more oriented around a ranged game plan, so the theme may be the correct choice for them, just not one taking 18 min units of Posse.
Overall, what this theme does for the faction is provide it with solid benefits, while returning multiple models from the shelf into the greater discussion, above and beyond the Gatorman Posse.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 12, 2017 20:56:01 GMT
By the caster:
Rask is the strongest Gatorman caster, and in the running for strongest in the faction (Arkadius gives him some competition in my opinion). Since the snake tossing was errata’d, the Rask Super Friends list lost a key element of its gameplay style. While still a very strong list, it was missing that zing. After Collin Hill’s success at Cancon with the Tharn Theme from Circle, I’d started reevaluating GMP with Rask, as he provides both a damage buff and a delivery mechanism to them. The release of this theme really cinched the deal for me, despite it being a departure from past list strategies. As a first pass, I am looking at:
Rask -Blackhide Wrastler -Blackhide Wrastler Wrong Eye -Snapjaw GMP (max) GMP (max) GMP (max) Bellows Crew 2 Free Solos
This is a bit of a return to Maximum Doods from the end of Mk2, sans Croaks. Snapjaw remains an absolute beast with Rask, and the Wrastlers are quite strong. At least 1 solo should go to be a Mist Speaker for access to Veteran Leader. One thing that I don’t like about this list is the lack of ranged weapons. I love ranged weapons. But adding in the Turtles becomes problematic, and losing Targ for Ancillary Attack adds another layer of sadness. I am also interested in trying out a BG of Spitter, Spitter, Wrastler, but suspect leaving Wrong Eye at home is a mistake. The list uses the feat to attempt to deliver an alpha strike, and the extra deployment adds to this. When considering large amounts of min units, I am disinclined to go that route because a) I don’t want to own them and b) it increases the fury load of moving around Fury to buff each unit.
Barnabas
Still an easy pick, if more gunline oriented. Anticipating the release of this theme is why I had started the Croak vs. Brigand debate thread, to try to drum up some love for our Amphibious amigos. Looking over the Barnabus lists in the ATC, OTC, and WTC, it isn’t particularly difficult to substitute the Croak Raiders in for the Brigands and/or Nyss. The list strategy remains largely untouched and you receive extra benefits to boot. Easy win here, sorry I didn’t write much on him, but I find him boring. A Bornabas.
Calaban
Another easy win for much the same reasons as Barnabas, kinda a weird mix between Rask and Maelok. He was mostly already running gator theme to begin with, simply replace the pig irons with frog darts. I suspect as the meta digs deeper into the more ranged centric casters of Maelok, Calaban, and Barnabas, the infantry load-out may start to more closely resemble Croaks, Croaks, Posse. Just a hunch. However, Calaban has been a caster historically run with a single unit of infantry in Mk3, and if that trend continues, the theme simply doesn’t pay dividends.
Maelok
Maelok is significantly more difficult to determine the direction for, and therefore much more interesting than Barnabas and Calaban. Maelok ended Mk2 as a freaking attrition machine, running either in the 3x3x3 list popularized by Rickard or in the Maximum Doods list build (x2 Croaks, x3 Posse). The edition change ended all this, with the nerf to the damage output of the Croaks, the nerf to Posse, the nerf to Revive, and the addition of Mortality to Maelok’s spell list, as well as the addition of the Blindwalker arc node. Mortality in particular moves Maelok into the realm of ranged attrition, in my opinion. Additionally, the opening up of the pact system granted him access to Ninja Pig’s absurd threat ranges, which paired quite well with an incorporeal feat. I’d venture a current standard list for him is based around Fraser’s work (with variations from here to here), looking like:
Maelok -Blackhide Wrastler -Blind Walker Rorsch -Brine Nyss Hunters (max) Brigands (max) -Warlord Brigands (max) -Warlord Feralgiest Chef
3 units of Brigands can also be taken, and is more beautifully symmetric points-wise, but you get the idea. Another list that I had proposed in the podcast is beast heavy, and more in line with the Blindwater Theme:
Maelok - TMNT -Spitter -Spitter -Spitter -Spitter -Wrastler -Blind Walker Rorsh -Brine
Even replacing Rorsh and Brine in the above list, it does not build well into the theme benefits, and if you want to keep the beast/turtle spam, then the whole list will need to be reconfigured.
So nothing in the current competitive meta translates well, but...
All that being said, Maelok provides significant help to the Posse, in the form of Death Pact, feat, and Zombify. Arm 18/20 is no laughing matter (for the secondary units), and the incorporeal aspects of the feat significantly help the Pathfinder issues. Revive is an interesting prospect; on one hand, Posse are high value Revive targets in that they are high power, multi-attack, and self-healing; on the other it is a delayed return on investment and they have to survive on one health box. Also Revive is expensive, and means that Maelok is cutting corners in other areas. So...I am uncertain if these buffs bring the Revive grind back or not.
My other regret with him is that I cannot take my previous load out of x3 Posse and x2 Croaks, the points simply aren’t there. So you cycle back to either the Croak/Posse sandwich or double Croaks and double Posse. I have previously run double Croak/Posse with him successfully, so it is well within the realm of possibility. Since he only has a single unit buff (Death Pact), it may also be worth considering x2 max Croaks, x1 max Posse, x2 min Posse. I think that comes out to be 71 points and 3 free solos, 2 of which should be Doc Crocs to cover the non-Death Pact posse. I don’t generally go for min units, but it may work out best here.
I am going to skip adding a theme list here, as I don’t have one yet that I am satisfied with, and I don’t want to post half-assed dojo. I think the outlines of said build are there however, it is just a matter of nailing down the details, especially how you want to handle the battle group (and making the list symmetrically beautiful of course). Maelok will be one that I am going to go back and forth on the theme a lot on. If I get the table time, expect a series of battle reports doing some comparing and contrasting.
Jaga Jaga is the last of the casters to explore, and the one I feel least inclined to take in theme. She essentially offers the Posse Ghost Walk which...is nice...but is not building to their or her strengths. I think she can be on the rise in the meta, and have more detailed dojo for her, but I take models/units like Skarath and the Nyss Hunters for very specific interactions and abilities based around what I am likely to encounter in the meta. At this time, I just don’t think that the theme fits my personal build well; not to discourage anyone from giving her a spin.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 12, 2017 20:56:15 GMT
Finally, don’t overlook the Bull Snappers as a benefit. The cost to health ratio for these guys is immense, possibly the current best in the game. Casters like Maelok and Rask can leverage them in serious ways. Maelok with feat and animus can place Arm 18, 16 health road blocks all over. Rask can buff them up to Pow 18, 3 attacks, 11.5” threat. While maybe not worth the 5-15 points out of theme, for free in theme….worth considering. But yeah, their rules are still a hot mess.
So there is 3 pages worth of knee-jerk reaction and dojo. As always, I reserve the right to change any of these opinions at any time and without any warning.
Cause no one waffles like Gaston, Has indecision like Gaston, Goes stomping in gator boots like Gaston!
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Post by galiman on Mar 13, 2017 4:27:26 GMT
Thanks for the write up Gaston! A few questions to toss out there. One for Rask could you argue for a unit of shamblers over the third posse? Same free stuff points. And lastly maybe it's cause I'm bad but for maelok would the witch do it's be more beneficial giving croaks tough or is that extra armor on feat turn a better investment?
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Post by galiman on Mar 13, 2017 4:57:08 GMT
Also grave wind on a bullsnapper is def 15 it's no skarath of course but that is something when it's also speed 8
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Post by mountainyeti on Mar 13, 2017 10:56:54 GMT
I agree Gaston, aside from getting to blow the dust off of my 5 max Posse units(formally known as Barny's buddies), the free solos and extra deployment have had me very excited. How does free points interact with vanguard list building? I can never remember.
I've been putting 4 min units in a lot of my lists. I miss targ a lot though.
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Post by ishruul on Mar 13, 2017 12:36:51 GMT
Thanks for the write up Gaston! A few questions to toss out there. One for Rask could you argue for a unit of shamblers over the third posse? Same free stuff points. And lastly maybe it's cause I'm bad but for maelok would the witch do it's be more beneficial giving croaks tough or is that extra armor on feat turn a better investment? Thinking the same for Rask. Help a lot with survivability. For Maelok I'm leaning toward the posse being a better investment with Witch Doctor. On another related topic: Is the Blindwater Theme officially out yet? Got a SR this weekend and I got some posses in the mail.
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Post by Korianneder on Mar 13, 2017 12:57:19 GMT
Gaston makes some good points, but I have to look at this theme force from a different perspective. That perspective being one of a crazy man. So here's what I've got
Rask's Family Reunion: Rask -Wrastler -Wrastler Bog Trog Trawler x3 Bog Trog Ambushers x2 Gatorman Posse Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers 3 Free solos/bull snappers: Bog Trog Mist Speaker x2 At this point I believe I've ran out of things that have the words Bog Trog in them. So Totem Hunter as the third free solo.
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Post by MessOfMinions on Mar 13, 2017 14:04:42 GMT
Gaston makes some good points, but I have to look at this theme force from a different perspective. That perspective being one of a crazy man. So here's what I've got Rask's Family Reunion: Rask -Wrastler -Wrastler Bog Trog Trawler x3 Bog Trog Ambushers x2 Gatorman Posse Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers 3 Free solos/bull snappers: Bog Trog Mist Speaker x2 At this point I believe I've ran out of things that have the words Bog Trog in them. So Totem Hunter as the third free solo. Man I was so dissapointed when the theme force was leaked and didn't increase the fa of ambushers to 4 or U, I miss that Rask theme force.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 13, 2017 15:02:10 GMT
Thanks for the write up Gaston! A few questions to toss out there. One for Rask could you argue for a unit of shamblers over the third posse? Same free stuff points. And lastly maybe it's cause I'm bad but for maelok would the witch do it's be more beneficial giving croaks tough or is that extra armor on feat turn a better investment? Tbh I haven't gotten around to playing Shamblers yet in Mk3. Pros are they are very good with Rask, generating lots of attacks and damage, and Hand of Glory has been buffed. Cons they are easy pickings for anti-infantry. So...play around with them and tell us!!! Nominally it is tough, as the leap from Arm 13 to 15 is not enough.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 13, 2017 15:03:10 GMT
Gaston makes some good points, but I have to look at this theme force from a different perspective. That perspective being one of a crazy man. So here's what I've got Rask's Family Reunion: Rask -Wrastler -Wrastler Bog Trog Trawler x3 Bog Trog Ambushers x2 Gatorman Posse Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers 3 Free solos/bull snappers: Bog Trog Mist Speaker x2 At this point I believe I've ran out of things that have the words Bog Trog in them. So Totem Hunter as the third free solo. I only see one unit of Shamblers...
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Post by Korianneder on Mar 13, 2017 16:20:21 GMT
Gaston makes some good points, but I have to look at this theme force from a different perspective. That perspective being one of a crazy man. So here's what I've got Rask's Family Reunion: Rask -Wrastler -Wrastler Bog Trog Trawler x3 Bog Trog Ambushers x2 Gatorman Posse Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers 3 Free solos/bull snappers: Bog Trog Mist Speaker x2 At this point I believe I've ran out of things that have the words Bog Trog in them. So Totem Hunter as the third free solo. I only see one unit of Shamblers... A second unit of Shamblers is really difficult to fit in nicely. I basically have to drop the Posse because the second Wrastler is paid for mainly with warbeast points. And it drops me down from exactly 60 points of units to only 54 points which I won't be able to get up to 60 again unless I take a min Posse or min Raiders, but then I only get one Wrastler. No, I think the fact that double Ambushers, Posse, Shamblers comes out to exactly 60 points is a sign from Kossk.
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