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Post by pattison on Sept 20, 2017 15:09:05 GMT
I just don't think they are the type of models any list should get for free. Not because of their value. On a side note, the Jr. is indeed underpriced at 4 pts. The Squire is fine for 5 I think. But this is not the reason for my sentiment. This whole Theme Force free model thing looks like a balloon that is being pumped and pumped. And there's not really a way back which I don't like. But this is just my personal feeling about these, and I fully accept if someone is happy with Themeforcemachine as it is.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Sept 20, 2017 15:28:04 GMT
I can definitely see your point. The only way this makes sense to me (long term) is if instead of being locked into your faction by rules (Cygnar can only take Cygnar and some mercs, Legion can only take Legion and some minions, etc.), the move is to lock people into factions by making it painful to not get those extra 20 points and allow people to build lists with models from any same grouping faction (warmachine vs hordes). This would be a logistical nightmare and require tons of playtesting, but would it be worth losing 20 points worth of free models to run Alexia under Murdoch with Denny as your warcaster? Possibly.
Plus, they'd make bank on all the people who now need to collect a half dozen additional factions.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 20, 2017 15:35:12 GMT
I just don't think they are the type of models any list should get for free. Not because of their value. On a side note, the Jr. is indeed underpriced at 4 pts. The Squire is fine for 5 I think. But this is not the reason for my sentiment. This whole Theme Force free model thing looks like a balloon that is being pumped and pumped. And there's not really a way back which I don't like. But this is just my personal feeling about these, and I fully accept if someone is happy with Themeforcemachine as it is. So we should not have them for free because its just how you feel? great rationale there...
I can appreciate your feeling about the balloon, but there is a way back if some themes get out of control, PP can just use a dynamic update
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Post by pattison on Sept 20, 2017 16:49:44 GMT
OK I explain it in more detail. It's because they are such staples in Cygnar. People would pay points for them no-matter-what. So I can see how and why Stannis is for free in Kingmaker, because at least he sees table time then (or not even then, as Kell and Orin are better so I'd say Stannis doesn't even worth 6 points as he is, let alone 7). This is how this should work imho. Some things are fluffy to bring and nice to have for free, like Agonizers in a full-warbeast Skorne list. Free Mortars for Ossrum are already arguable in my book. This is more about doing such things in style that is a bit hard to explain in depth and that PP always lacked so I don't really blame them for just doing things this blatantly. Free Squire and Jr. is as subtle as Oprah giving TVs to everyone. But you know I understand if someone likes to super size their menus at McDonalds. After all I guess it doesn't really matter what I say as long as I wanna "take away" the biggest crutches FOR FREE in your faction, 36*CYGNAR*42guy36.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 20, 2017 16:57:45 GMT
OK I explain it in more detail. It's because they are such staples in Cygnar. People would pay points for them no-matter-what. So I can see how and why Stannis is for free in Kingmaker, because at least he sees table time then (or not even then, as Kell and Orin are better so I'd say Stannis doesn't even worth 6 points as he is, let alone 7). This is how this should work imho. Some things are fluffy to bring and nice to have for free, like Agonizers in a full-warbeast Skorne list. Free Mortars for Ossrum are already arguable in my book. This is more about doing such things in style that is a bit hard to explain in depth and that PP always lacked so I don't really blame them for just doing things this blatantly. Free Squire and Jr. is as subtle as Oprah giving TVs to everyone. But you know I understand if someone likes to super size their menus at McDonalds. After all I guess it doesn't really matter what I say as long as I wanna "take away" the biggest crutches FOR FREE in your faction, 36*CYGNAR*42guy36. So by that logic Dark Host should not have Tartarus for free, Forges of War should not have Arcanists for free, anything is integral for a list to function should not be free. Just seems a bit arbitrary. Themes are meant to be good, which is why the free models are good, and not 'fluffy' add-ons
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Sept 21, 2017 0:07:29 GMT
So by that logic Dark Host should not have Tartarus for free, Forges of War should not have Arcanists for free, anything is integral for a list to function should not be free. Just seems a bit arbitrary. Themes are meant to be good, which is why the free models are good, and not 'fluffy' add-ons I think he was going more for something like "imagine if Choir was free in protectorate" or "Hell mouths free for legion". It's like, if you have access to those things, of course you'll want them in a list, but should you get them for free? As both a Cygnar player and a Merc player I kinda get where he's coming from. That being said... I'm greedy. I just don't want to have to pay for those things, but that's just because I don't want to.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Sept 21, 2017 0:39:38 GMT
mebbe when the game came out at 75 points and we thought that was not quite enough they also thought that but before we did
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 21, 2017 8:11:15 GMT
So by that logic Dark Host should not have Tartarus for free, Forges of War should not have Arcanists for free, anything is integral for a list to function should not be free. Just seems a bit arbitrary. Themes are meant to be good, which is why the free models are good, and not 'fluffy' add-ons I think he was going more for something like "imagine if Choir was free in protectorate" or "Hell mouths free for legion". It's like, if you have access to those things, of course you'll want them in a list, but should you get them for free? As both a Cygnar player and a Merc player I kinda get where he's coming from. That being said... I'm greedy. I just don't want to have to pay for those things, but that's just because I don't want to. Both the Choir and Hellmouths are units, PP for whatever reason have decided that free slots are largely reserved for Solos, Weapon Crews and Command Attachments. But if they made a theme that allowed a unit of choir or a Hellmouth I would not have a problem, just like I don't have a problem with Black Industries granting free 7 point or less warjacks.
Now I guess PP probably decide on what is free and what is not by 'what feels right', however I am inclined to trust their judgement more as they actually design the game
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Post by pattison on Sept 21, 2017 8:24:12 GMT
Indeed. This whole argument is about 'what feels right' and it just might as well be different for different people (including game devs). You couldn't find a very exact reasoning behind PP's concept of free models (what to give for free and why), and I could only give you an exact reasoning behind mine with lots and lots of explaining which basically leads to nowhere as I've not been asked by PP to help them with this. So I think we shouldn't really spend more time with this topic, I just threw in my feelings that you don't need to relate to.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 21, 2017 8:47:33 GMT
Indeed. This whole argument is about 'what feels right' and it just might as well be different for different people (including game devs). You couldn't find a very exact reasoning behind PP's concept of free models (what to give for free and why), and I could only give you an exact reasoning behind mine with lots and lots of explaining which basically leads to nowhere as I've not been asked by PP to help them with this. So I think we shouldn't really spend more time with this topic, I just threw in my feelings that you don't need to relate to. I could hazard a guess at why solos are provided as free models, at the advent of Mk 3 it was impossible to build decent lists using similar numbers of solos in Mk 2, the larger mandatory battlegroups (and in the case of Cygnar the mandatory jack on Junior), meant that the available points for units and solos were squeezed. this combined with solos pretty much doubling in cost across the board, while jacks and a lot of units being roughly 1.5x their previous cost, meant that it was harder to get solos into a list.
That is why solos are the prime choice for free slots, and PP does not see fit to exclude solos that are vital to how a list functions from being free.
edit, PP are also trying to encourage list diversity as well, that is why Solos, Weapon crews and Command attachments are provided as free slots
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Post by pattison on Sept 21, 2017 12:33:19 GMT
List diversity as in go Theme or go home? I have to appreciate though that SR17 helped A LOT with list diversity.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 21, 2017 12:37:54 GMT
List diversity as in go Theme or go home? I have to appreciate though that SR17 helped A LOT with list diversity. ha ha, I meant more of a mix of jack/beasts, units and solos. At the last Smogcon I spoke briefly to Will Hungerford and he said that the scoring elements in SR17 were to encourage list diversity, so big thumbs up from me as it seems to be working
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Post by pattison on Sept 21, 2017 14:39:57 GMT
Yes, to be perfectly honest SR17 saved the game for me. It did not for about third of the meta though that we've lost due to the immense MKIII derping. I was about to quit for good by the end of SR16, but I started to enjoy games again in SR17. I also believe that SR17 balances out some of the craziness currently present in Themes.
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Post by tapecrawler on Sept 21, 2017 18:07:34 GMT
Personally I think that the free points in themes were planned from the outset of MKIII. If you look at the transition of points from MKII to MKIII tournament lists fall a bit short of where they used to be until you add in the "free" points, then the lists are roughly equivalent. I think a better way to handle it would give the themes free points for every theme requirement met that the player can spend as they see fit. So they could spend it on solos, attachments, or units (I'm not sure about Jacks, I haven't really thought about them in this instance). Since the points would be constant, for example for every 20 points of "X" you can take four points of free stuff, it would make some of the themes that have crappy solos or a very limited selection more interesting since they could take alternatives. Being a Khador player I'd be tempted to take a Drakhun. It seems a bit overpowered at first glance, but it would consume 9 points (or more than 2/3 of the typical free points granted by themes).
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Post by redbaron89 on Sept 24, 2017 6:01:23 GMT
Theorycrafted a ossrum gunlune. Played a match against vyros 1 yesterday. This list would probably struggle vs high arm but is great at shooting heavies/infantry off the board.
Ossrum wj 28 Gunnersx7 42 Blastersx2 12 Idriansx2 30 Uax2 free Herne and jon 5 Artillery corpsx2 12 Reinholdt free Orin midwinter free
Artillery corps, blasters, herne and jon, and reinholdt deal with stealth. Might get two rounds of shooting with both idrian units and then sacrifice one unit to jam and contest. Snipe is awesome on them! Orins electoleaps help unjam bunnies if they get caught up by reach infantry and arcane vortex is great in a pinch. Fire for effect is bonkers good and devastated a ret siren. Sacrificed a damaged bunny to shoot it in the back with artillery killing 4 of 5 infiltrators.
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