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Post by lavkitsune on Sept 10, 2017 12:03:57 GMT
Thank you for your reply Zich. I understand how powerful fast beasts can be and I frequently play lists that puts lots of pressure on opponents side with fast moving beasts / units. Thanks to Double ferox lists I think most Skorne players know power of fast moving units as well. With Xerxis2 Archidon spam lists there are few things that I do not quite understand though and perhaps the major thing is fury management.
If you are to run all your Archidons 18" on first turn, you cannot keep up with beast handlers and remove their fury, which means that they either risk frenzy or Xerxis runs very low 0-1 fury on turn 1 and risks on being vulnerable to all ranged models, arch nodes and such. He is huge base model after all and cannot be hidden behind anything. If Archidons move less, so that beast handlers can get fury out of them, then they are not utilizing their speed. If you charge on your second turn with most of your Archidons, you are facing same problem again on third turn: Xerxis2 must have low fury so he can leech most out of Archidons or they all just frenzy. Basically I think that what bothers me most is having huge base model camp such low fury numbers.
Second problem I have with that list is lack of armor crack and tech against def skews. Take for example Helynna or Stryker1 jacklist that can make all their models have armor 23-27 on a turn that you are about to charge not to mention that both Cygnar and Scyrah are likely to have shooting that can easily threaten Xerxis. Feat, whips and whips helps but effectively only one model can have ignite on feat turn, which in worst case means that opponent takes alpha and then kills majority of Archidons on second turn. Kinda same thing with Circle with Wrond Eyes star crossed lists, you have to spend lots of fury just to hit things and that diminishes power of archidons plenty. Third list that I see archidons struggling would be Khador Irusk2 lists with huge number of toughing infantry that can flood whole table.
So like I said earlier, I am likely to pick 1-2 Archidons on most lists as they are awesome, but find that with Xerxis2 more variety with heavies is better: one gladiator for rush, one aradus soldier for snacking, 2 Archidons for pressure and 3 rhinodons for infantry hate and/or armor cracking. 7 Heavies is still plenty, but it's much easier to fury manage it with handlers and you get more animus utility too.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690 
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Post by zich on Sept 10, 2017 15:54:51 GMT
The idea is to not run every model turn1. A charging Archidon still goes to the 21" line top-of-1 and does so for free. And once you jam 7 Birds into your opponent under feat, it doesn't really matter if some of the surviving ones frenzy next turn. An Archidon is basically Mat 7.5 P+S 18.5 under X2s feat. That is without Ignite or Rapport.
Concerning X2s safety: It depends what you are playing against and who gets first turn. Most gunlines will not get enough threat onto X2 before they are engaged.
Ridiculous ARM stats could be an issue. However, if they're only there for a turn it's not so bad. Speed is a good counter to such control feats, as you can often build up enough pressure to wait their feat out.
Concerning Khador: I think it should be safe to just drop Winds into them.
I just don't see our other beasts making the cut. What do you want to Snack? Why would you need Rush? And whatever would you need Rhinos for? I'm not saying don't try it, I just don't see what for. Especially Aradus have a huge weakness in the AD-denying themes that I personally find too dangerous.
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Post by lavkitsune on Sept 10, 2017 17:30:55 GMT
Hey thank you for your reply, finally someone explained that lists idea properly! Now as I hear your explanation I am certain that it is just our local meta that makes that list seem so weak, as every second player is either toughing infantry spam or ARM spam, which makes spamming kinda worthless.
For the same reason I have included Aradus with most of my lists. Snacking + Thresher is wicked combination on clearing tough infantry for example and even if they lose AD, aradus run 10" under Xerxis2, which is not really that bad. Rush is for ensuring that you get alpha strike and getting through terrain (as I don't have only archidons), because some armies can have charge ranges even bigger than 13" and it also enables some beasts to go deeper with threshers/trample or similar. And Rhinodons, they are not very popular, but I find them quite awesome. 2pts more than Archidon, but 2 more initial attacks, critical knock down and thresher which are both great with Xerxis2 feat. They can clear infantry better in melee than any other warbeast on our faction and are very cheap armor crackers (same as archidons but with +2 extra attacks). So yeah, I like them =D
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granor
Junior Strategist
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Post by granor on Sept 10, 2017 18:51:12 GMT
I would want 2 SA in the list but the points get odd
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Sept 11, 2017 2:29:52 GMT
Kinda in topic question. What do people try to accomplish with Archidon spams? I have seen some people running lists with 6-8 Archidons at tournaments with Xerxis2, but to me it just seems tad weak. They lose against def skev, armor skev and infantry heavy lists, so why do people actually run those lists? I can agree though that 1-2 in a list works with almost any caster, so they are versatile models in that aspect. Well that particular list for example makes it 3" past the center line top-of-1. And there is no Rush in that list. It threats incredibly far and Xerxis mitigates all of the weaknesses of this TEN POINT heavy. And that list was played even before it got a theme. In general, I have not used another heavy in a few months. Which is sad because I like our Titans and Bugs, but they're just not good enough. bugs are good thanks to the prowess of range attacks, especially thanks to the addition of aim (I'm originally from MK1). The soldier is generally seen as the go too but I actually like the sentinel for infantry and its early engagement. As for the titans, they don't work alone that well. If you give them something to amp them up, however, they really become nasty board control. A good example of this would be a bronzeback with a cyclops savage after the bronzeback has been whipped for damage output. Use the savage to put future sight on the bronzeback and you got 5 fury that could possibly all go towards additional attacks and boosted damage dice after he becomes PS 19x2 + 18 WITH a chain grab & smash while using a minimal amount of fury on his attack roles. Basically, you can turn him or the gladiator into a beast who can go solo against gargantuans with the right caster behind him, and without molik karn to back up other casters while in theme, that can be a big role filler. |
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 11, 2017 7:17:44 GMT
I know what those models do, I just see no reason to play them. In SR17 scenario pressure is more important than ever, so why would I take slow models? I know Soldiers and Bronzebacks can hit like a ton of bricks, but why would I pay so many points for that? If a caster can buff 18p Bronzebacks they can usually also buff 10p Archidons or possibly even Animantaraxes or Infantry.
I played a lot of Heavies earlier this year and after a tournament to which I brought a Mak2/Zaadesh2 pairing it dawned on me: There is nothing I would drop Zaadesh into that Makeda couldn't have handled better. So I adapted my pairing and removed almost all heavies from it except for 3 Archions over 2 lists. And I never looked back. Initially I thought I'd have a problem cracking armor, but that proved to not be the case. Now with WI I tried coming up with beast-heavy lists simply because I enjoyed those in Mk2, but I can never find one that's worth including. They are always either incredibly slow or require me buying 5 more Archidons.
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didder
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Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Sept 11, 2017 13:34:51 GMT
My big hang up on the Bronzeback and Soldier is their animi. These are some of our most expensive noncharacter heavies. They are supposed to be faction hall marks, our premier models. After all, they are both designed around melee and only melee, and this is not just a melee faction, but a beast melee faction. Then, even after the skorne errata, wherein I KNOW they got huge amounts of feedback on the weakness of these beasts' animi, they insisted on keeping them. I get disgusted when I think about it.
If these animi were on a random light beast, I wouldn't be bothered, but BOTH of our beast chassis' marquee melee beaters are saddled with crap animi. What am I supposed to even do with Puissance, besides mispronounce it? It's only possible relevance is when the bronzeback fails to kill something. When does that even happen? Exaggeration aside, it does happen occasionally, even still, it only would ever matter if the enemy heavy is just toeing in to a zone a bit so you can push them out. If they're firmly in a zone, it won't really matter. And furthermore, it has even less relevance as an animi for your warlock to cast on themselves. And, even if this situation came up often, the 6 point Agonizer's animus would work so much more reliably at the same job.
As for the Soldier's Heightened Metabolism, at least a little free healing is nice to have. Corpse and Soul Denial is occasionally relevant. Usually, though, when an enemy list has soul collection or corpse collection, a single Soldier is barely going to put a dent in the problem. It bothers me that this animus is very similar to the Reptile Hounds.
For both animi, they are niche. And, even when relevant they have a weak, though not completely flaccid, impact on the game. They should both just be native abilities to the beasts because the beasts are at the very top end of the spectrum in terms of cost for a non character heavy. It doesn't help that the beasts are melee only and very slow. I consider them some of my worst purchases.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 11, 2017 14:13:31 GMT
When was Skorne a melee beast faction? At the very least not since ~2014. Ever since then, just taking infantry was the stronger option. Be it Fist, Mk2 Mordikaar, Cats, Winds.
PP gives us a lot of melee beasts, but that doesn't mean much. Part of the issue I think is that a lot of the uniqueness of our beasts is contained within the characters. I'd love a non-character version of Molik or the Despoiler.
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granor
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Post by granor on Sept 11, 2017 14:59:51 GMT
The things I see is Skorne is sold as a beast faction. At least while I was buying into the faction it seemed the emphasis was on the titans. As I played my local cryx issues caused me to pick up mordicaar and I played fist for a year also so the faction wasn't played super beast heavy except for chain gang but seemed to be sold as beast heavy
Now I see beasts in general struggling locally to keep up with jacks with the titans having issues with durability and cost. However, with the beast theme Skorne is painted into a pretty difficult design corner. If you make the beasts too durable the theme will become broken quickly but if you keep the beasts durability inside the theme reasonable outside of theme they become pretty useless. I don't know pps ideas on how much of a problem this is or how they want to fix it
Moving forward playing the game as it exists now and not how I want the game to exist I find I am playing SA as my workhorse models and then I bring a combination of raiders and shaman to take advantage of the center terrain pice (see all my battle reports for our usual terrain setup) and the occasional archidon. I am going to try bugs in a zaadesh2 list but mostly I am using SA raider shaman and archidons
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didder
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Post by didder on Sept 11, 2017 17:42:13 GMT
I do like the cannoneer, and prefer it over the raider when pairing with the shaman for far strike muling. It isn't a spectacular beast because it's only fury 3, which is very strange on a 17 point heavy, and also it's speed combined with wanting to shoot makes it really hard to use it's melee power. However, Swift hunter from WoD theme helps with the latter, and we have gained even more beast movement buffs in our warlocks since the eratta such as Xerxis1, and now Jalaam.
And, yes, our battle engine makes it hard to want to include another heavy beast. I'd run two in most lists if I could.
I get good work out of the Rhinodon. I bring him somewhat often. I hardly ever use spiny growth though.
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Post by lavkitsune on Sept 11, 2017 19:46:34 GMT
I do agree that scenario pressure is important as it was on earlier editions and seasons. Each model has their strenghts and weaknesses, but calling Aradus slow kinda baffles me. Many of our casters (Makeda, Morghoul, Xerxis etc.) can boost our beasts speed so that Aradus is also over the midline at first turn: 9" deployment in theme + 6" advanced deployment + 12" from rushed and +2SPD spell/field marshall = 27" from edge of the table. This is same as with Archidons without rush: 9" + 18" = 27". Difference is that Aradus Soldier is a lot harder to remove by shooting and scares opponent quite a bit more as it can one round colossals with buffs and can crack even huge ARM27 buffed models. So continuing from my earlier example with Xerxis2, Aradus, Titan, Rhinodons and Archidons: Turn 1 you got 2 Archidons and Aradus at 27", 1 Rhinodon at 25" and 2 Rhinodons at 23. I would call that kinda ok Scenario pressure, as they have better chances on breaking armor, dealing with infantry and tough models while at the same time having more hit boxes and higher armor.
Aradus Soldiers animus doesn't sound that great if you think that only it could use it, but it can be spread through whole beast army and that in my opinion is quite valuable. Rhinodons Thresher + Snacking removes even big tough units and can be used to heal the beast rapidly, but ofcourse it helps heal any other beast as well. It gets even better if there is shield guards that spread the damage through the army and then they all get healed by snacking enemy models while removing them from play. That is pretty good to me. Bronzebacks animus is much more situational, but works much better with other beasts. Throw puissance to Cyclop Brutes and see how annoyed opponent gets when they push their heavies 5" away from objectives and battlelines. Now imagine 3 beasts doing that and its kinda nasty too, heh =D
So what I am trying to say is, our beasts have lots of utility if you combine them with lesser beasts and experiment with them, though I still think Bronzeback is quite expensive and I often prefer cheaper alternatives...
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didder
Junior Strategist
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Post by didder on Sept 11, 2017 21:32:38 GMT
The base speed stat of the aradus heavies isn't the whole of the reason they're hardly taken competitively. As you point out, we have quite a few ways to speed them up.
I think a part of it is that it's not like they are costed aggressively in balance of their low speed. They're still quite pricey.
Also, there are a number of themes that "shut off" advanced deployment. It's not common enough to be the first thing you worry about, but in a competitive setting when opponents will have multiple lists, the chance increases. While it's not going to shoot down the chances you'll run an aradus, it is a strike against, and especially against running multiple aradii where nixed AD will become catastrophic.
Another is that the Soldier effectively has a much shorter melee range against anything it can't pull in, like Collossals, which is a bit significant, I think.
Those were some neat ideas on the animi usage. Suppose I'll test them out and try to keep an open mind
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demonic
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Post by demonic on Sept 11, 2017 23:41:42 GMT
The reason why people even wonder if archidons are worth busing in pairs is because of this extended range our casters can give even our slowest beasts. For example, we can claim our own and threaten (be within the charge range of) an opponent's scenario area turn 1. With an archidon the only thing that changes is that we can almost already contest our opponent's zones. If we go on the top of turn 1 we can basically shut the opponent out of the scenario race and force them into an assassination scheme. However, of course, this requires one of our few casters that can push our models across the table. Without them, our slow movement becomes crippling, which is why before the archidon and the errata all we could do is toss infantry on the board and hope they could hold their own until our other units get across the table. Now, with the inclusion of the archidon and the errata, you got long leashing arc nodes and assassination runs threatening from all edges of the table. Skorne is fairing much better now that the viability of our casters have increased. I actually saw a thread asking how to counter skorne... yeah... not how to counter cryx, cygnar, or khador... skorne.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 12, 2017 8:10:11 GMT
SPD3 is slow. Sure, we can make that SPD5, but we can also turn SPD7 into SPD9. AD helps, but it just doesn't work into Khador. And that's a huge liability. The Aradus are harder to remove from range, but once you add Cover/Concealment the difference shrinks massively. Add to that the Immunity:Electricity which is huge in the Cygnar matchup and the fact that Archidons actually bring more boxes per point. Sure, the Aradus still survive it better, but not by much. And do I really want to give up 4p of SPD and 6p of Army to get that small increase in survivability? I'm just not seeing why. Or more importantly, I'm not seeing the matchups in which that would be a good idea. I'm not seeing it into Cygnar or Khador, which are two very important matchups. Not sure about Cryx, but expensive Heavies have traditionally not been too good an idea into them. If Snacking worked into Undead (ew), I'd most certainly give it a try. Or if they were 14p, but that's quite the agressive price point. I can see Rhinodons for Infantry removal. They seem exceedingly okay with the Rhinoman, but I have yet to try it as the model is quite ugly. And I'm really not sold on 11/18, but for 12p, what can you expect. I'm not sure about taking dedicated ARM-cracking beasts, as I really don't see the need for those. But that might just be my local meta with little Stryker1, Lucant or Baldur2. I like your lavkitsune ideas with the Bronzeback Animus. It does however seem a bit janky to build for. In which list would you take a Bronzeback and multiple Brutes? |
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Post by lavkitsune on Sept 12, 2017 17:23:27 GMT
@zirch Yeah, it seems our meta is quite different. I kinda envy you as you can play with Archidon spam, as it would be really powerful in here too, if it wasnt for that much high armor foes.
As for Bronzeback animus. It doesn't have to bee brute that uses the animus. It could be free Krea from beast theme that pushes models 4" away from the zone, it could be Cyclop raider/shaman in a ranged theme or even a single scarab. Beauty of it is that any single beast within animus range or several beasts could gain beatback and push models away from zones. Just like you, I dislike investing so many points on a single beast and prefer getting light beasts/Archidons/Rhinodons instead, but when I pick Bronzeback sometimes (for Makeda1 for exapmle), puissance works well. With Makeda1 you can get some serious area control with undying infantry and beatbacking shieldguard beasts. It's nasty =D
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