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Post by steeltitan on Jul 30, 2017 10:34:13 GMT
Now that we are allowed to add one mercenary solo, unit and battle engine, how do you think that will change out common theme lists selections?
I can definitely see Orin come back, maybe Bokur if you don't run in WG theme. Also, being able to add Reinholdt instead of having to take a Spriggan (Dark Host tech) seems great. I'm not sure if Aiyana and Holt are worth the package points, but I felt the same in MK2 but I keep reading about them.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 30, 2017 10:58:07 GMT
Mercs in theme looks a bit of bad choice. Basically there are no reasons to build outside of theme forces. Probably Orin is one of the best choices around. Then Sylys and Reinholdt. Eyriss1 could make an appearence as well as ragman, but looks like more difficult, since they are nice o have around pieces but not key pieces.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 30, 2017 12:44:10 GMT
Wait, has this been finalised? Like, it's competition-legal right now? Last I heard it was just something they were talking about.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 30, 2017 13:02:19 GMT
Wait, has this been finalised? Like, it's competition-legal right now? Last I heard it was just something they were talking about. It's this. They are evaluating themes individually and will revise wording accordingly, likely with more input through the CID. They stopped thaking general feedback on it in the current CID as they realized it was too big of a step to just throw out Willy Nilly.
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Post by auraco on Jul 30, 2017 14:02:23 GMT
Ayana&holt for magic weapons are going to be big in some match ups, nearly necessary to go against Wraith engine or ghost pirate lists. B3 In WGK with a gun carriage, ruin and ayana & holt looks like he could provide a great answer to ghost fleet. Having access to ayana & holt is also going to be big for Old witch2 in order to build her as a ghost fleet drop because in theme having only access to scourge to deal with incorporeal is really not a good plan. That is if they don't give us a way to get magic weapon in theme outside of marshalling something on a forge seer.
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Post by Havock on Jul 30, 2017 17:03:42 GMT
Once they hit us with a bunch of other themes around the end of the year this will probably be the new 'normal'. I get why, it compartimentalizes faction bloat.
Are you allowed to add Valachev to a unit you bring?
I'm liking thr prospect of a Bokur, Ragman, Saxon Orrik or Sylys/Reinholdt in themes.
And when in doubt a unit of Eliminators is probably as decent choice; cheap enough not to bite into theme benefits too hard but stealthy, quick unjammers and grabbers are pretty nifty in most lists. Jws can take them already, but they support IF and WG well.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 30, 2017 18:52:57 GMT
I doubt they will give a blanket 1 of each rule. But their current thinking seems to be that themes will be the way you build a list. If they continue with this thinking then they HAVE to find a way to put Mercs into theme lists or it invalidates the entire merc/minion system.
I'm not really that in favour of themes being the only way to build lists nor do I think giving carte blanch access to mercs is a good idea for themes. Themes should be 'thematic' not just a way to min/max your army lists.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 30, 2017 21:32:08 GMT
I think the big ones will be Ragman for Z1 fangs (pretty much the best fang build), Alexia for fangs/wgk (the only possible recursion in Khador), Orin in Jaws (good improvement against control), Ashley in Jaws (improves all hordes beast brick matchups) and A&H for wgk even without Valachev (solves Fleet without specific caster). Those have the high probability of being allowed.
I don't think we'll be allowed something entirely new in Jaws or LoS like Nyss or dwarf BE.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 30, 2017 21:36:14 GMT
I think once they allow mercs in theme it will sound the death bell for non theme armies.
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Post by leotherat on Jul 30, 2017 22:09:56 GMT
To me, the bigger question will be if the Merc (whatever) are going to be considered FF or just friendly. The way the game is set up now it's really a disadvantage to not be FF.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 30, 2017 22:19:47 GMT
There are certain things that you shouldn't get when playing in theme. Like Storm Division should NOT get Rupert. Otherwise it's a simple min/max system. Once you can start including stuff that covers the weakness of a theme, why even have themes? Just raise the standard game size to 100 points and have no theme
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 30, 2017 23:04:45 GMT
There are certain things that you shouldn't get when playing in theme. Like Storm Division should NOT get Rupert. Otherwise it's a simple min/max system. Once you can start including stuff that covers the weakness of a theme, why even have themes? Just raise the standard game size to 100 points and have no theme Because of this In two more years each faction should have around 10 more entries, 2 more casters and a small contingent of merc options. The thing is, balancing 10 themes against each other is way easier than balancing 10+ new models in the most relevant permutation that they can be taken. That's my point, it may not be a problem now, but it will be a problem eventually (extrapolating from other games that do need to rotate stuff out to maintain a healthy meta). PP is future proofing the game somewhat by basing the game balance on a macro-level around themes instead of a micro-level around the hundreds of ways each individual model could be abused... If you want an evergreen range of miniatures, grouping then into themes is a necessary evil. Otherwise, a "standard" "type-2" rotation of casters and other miniatures would need to be implemented to mitigate the bloat. Also, the new Trencher box set that went to solicitation this week is an indication that the whole game will be repackaged into discrete themes.
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 31, 2017 0:56:28 GMT
PP has clearly stated themes are the intended way to play the game. Like it or not it's here to stay. I think it's a great idea because it creates an incredible level of customization when combined with theme benefits, and it has a definite drawback in that you don't get the theme bonuses for free stuff with mercs. Unless of course they change the wording, but then who cares? Everyone gets it.
For Khador this becomes very interesting. Right now our free stuff is mediocre. Free weapon crew in WG? Free Kovnik in LoS? Those models would never see play otherwise. But because those models are poor losing out on them is not much of a loss if the corresponding merc option makes up for it. And sometimes you don't even need to lose out. Here is my vlad1 list:
Vlad1 2 Grolar WGIDS WGRCDS Joe Carriage 2 mortar 2 field gun
When mercs hit I drop the Grolars down to Destroyers and add A+H. Done. With no loss to anything.
Jaws will benefit from this mightily because the infantry choices now are bad. But if you can drop in Nyss... maybe Kell... golden.
This change only helps Khador so we should embrace it.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 31, 2017 1:01:03 GMT
Quick correction, currently the blanket is looking at one unit one solo, and looking at banning certain solos from themes.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 31, 2017 4:02:45 GMT
I think the key issue for Khador (sadly) right now is that some pretty important things (ranged magic weapons, debuff removal) are either rare or non existant in our facction. I really want to see what happens with our greylord themes - which will be an important one in "spreading out" what the faction can do. Current appiration on the greylords is tremendously underwhelming as a rumored advantage.
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