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Post by pangurban on Jul 20, 2017 16:02:26 GMT
I think it's pretty clear that every faction will get a jack/beast theme where taking jacks or beasts gets extra models. Circle does already have one. But Skorne does not. Disciples probably does not count. Circles beast theme has 5 beasts to chose from, 14 are left out that can't play in a beast theme. That is not ok and needs to be fixed asap. Why they felt the need to split our beasts is a mystery to me. It's not like warmachine factions have that restriction. So the Ret myrmidon theme doesn't exclude all non-Shyeel jacks?
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Post by jisidro on Jul 20, 2017 16:19:38 GMT
fistedbyhalaak and Stormsmith Dropout:
It's really unfair to say that a BG based faction has a BG theme that covers all of 5 non-character of their beasts. If Skorne's theme doesn't count as BG theme and it adds beasts to be selected from how can a theme that heavily restricts beast selection be counted as one?
pangurban: I don't think ret has a BG theme either, it has a shyeel theme with a REALLY strong BG benefit.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 20, 2017 16:38:33 GMT
fistedbyhalaak and Stormsmith Dropout: It's really unfair to say that a BG based faction has a BG theme that covers all of 5 non-character of their beasts. If Skorne's theme doesn't count as BG theme and it adds beasts to be selected from how can a theme that heavily restricts beast selection be counted as one? pangurban: I don't think ret has a BG theme either, it has a shyeel theme with a REALLY strong BG benefit. It does count as a beast theme. Keep in mind, I said each faction will get AT LEAST one such theme. I would not be surprised if Circle got another one.
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Post by fistedbyhalaak on Jul 20, 2017 16:58:01 GMT
fistedbyhalaak and Stormsmith Dropout: It's really unfair to say that a BG based faction has a BG theme that covers all of 5 non-character of their beasts. If Skorne's theme doesn't count as BG theme and it adds beasts to be selected from how can a theme that heavily restricts beast selection be counted as one? I think we're having a difference of what is considered "covered" by a theme. I'm stating that you can take them in a list, which is really the objective of expanding themes at the moment. You can play a Feral Warpwolf in theme, which is more than you can say for Druids or Mistwalkers at the moment. And there's no small chance that Blackclad aren't in a beast oriented theme as a two for one. And I think we have the Skorne beast theme in Disciples. It doesn't require you to have free solos from battlegroup, it requires serious battlegroup bonuses. Having the ability to push out Rage and Primal on a faction not designed around it is a huge benefit, and probably better than 2-3 solos in value.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Jul 20, 2017 17:12:30 GMT
I can't imagine any worse than a deliverer only theme list So many low pow, low accuracy aoes. I realise it isn't as easy as copy pasting, but there are a lot of similarities in the themes produced so far. My friend who plays Skorne is tearing his hair out over the lack of theme at the moment for his armies. He says he looks over the table and feels outnumbered, and often out matched on some ways. Skorne always seems to get a raw deal. I'm a Skorne player primarily, so I do feel the pain too. One thing we've done locally is only played theme against theme and not and against not. So Skorne and CoC players get some games with more varied lists. I will sometimes play against themes with what I regard as very good Skorne lists, but I also see it like some sort of DBZ training with weighted clothes thing-- it's not a fair fight but it will get you better when the fair part actually comes. The Skorne theme issue is exasperated by two of their being stuck in a book that's not out for 1.5 months. PP wants to keep something back to get people to buy the book, but since it's so far back from all the other releases the faction ends up playing with a hand tied behind its back. This gets doubly bad when this is the same faction that needed Skornesmas/Hoksunukuh to get back on the same power level as other factions. Yeah. The books and theme release limitations should stop. With the clear trajectory of everything becoming digital, it doesn't make sense to me that they would think that people will be happy to have to wait for books to be released. It simply doesn't suit the hyper competitive nature of the game. I feel that a more consistent release schedule would have made this whole theme business so much more palatable. Something along the lines of : on a set date, each faction gets a theme force, irregardless of timing of books or faction standing, or anything else. Making it really clear on a calendar what's happening for players. With CID proving to be such a success as well, it could have been really easy to do so.
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Post by garou on Jul 20, 2017 18:00:03 GMT
fistedbyhalaak and Stormsmith Dropout: It's really unfair to say that a BG based faction has a BG theme that covers all of 5 non-character of their beasts. If Skorne's theme doesn't count as BG theme and it adds beasts to be selected from how can a theme that heavily restricts beast selection be counted as one? I think we're having a difference of what is considered "covered" by a theme. I'm stating that you can take them in a list, which is really the objective of expanding themes at the moment. You can play a Feral Warpwolf in theme, which is more than you can say for Druids or Mistwalkers at the moment. And there's no small chance that Blackclad aren't in a beast oriented theme as a two for one. And I think we have the Skorne beast theme in Disciples. It doesn't require you to have free solos from battlegroup, it requires serious battlegroup bonuses. Having the ability to push out Rage and Primal on a faction not designed around it is a huge benefit, and probably better than 2-3 solos in value. Who cares if for example druid wilder is covered when it is only covered in a theme where the only allowed beasts are constructs that NONE of her abilities work on. If a model is not covered in a meaningful way it might as well be left out. I have a feeling they will just place random models in places they do not belong and where they do not contribute in a meaningful way.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 20, 2017 18:43:55 GMT
fistedbyhalaak and Stormsmith Dropout: It's really unfair to say that a BG based faction has a BG theme that covers all of 5 non-character of their beasts. If Skorne's theme doesn't count as BG theme and it adds beasts to be selected from how can a theme that heavily restricts beast selection be counted as one? pangurban: I don't think ret has a BG theme either, it has a shyeel theme with a REALLY strong BG benefit. Circle having a theme for a specific type of battlegroup makes sense given the construct vs living dichotomy. Circle not having a beast-based theme either for the other side of that coin or for beasts in general does not: I'm fairly sure PP will get around to that at some point, and going by their recent statements that point should be within the next 6 months. Give it some time. That said, a theme that rewards you for taking beasts and also makes those beasts better *is* a BG theme, even if it restricts the BG to constructs only. I get that waiting for this is annoying, but some of these arguments are getting a bit silly. If you want to count a Skorne theme that doesn't give benefits for taking beasts and a decent but not great benefit to those beasts is supposed to count as a BG theme, then the Devourer's Host and the Wild Hunt should count as a BG theme as well. Personally I don't think any of these is one. And the Shyeel theme may be themed around Shyeel models, it both gives a benefit for taking Myrmidons and an excellent benefit to the Myrmidons taken (and currently allows only two units, one of which is a Myrmidon support unit): it's a BG theme alright. I'm hoping for another, more general BG theme for Ret but if not that I expect a Vyre theme that does something for Myrmidons at least.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 21, 2017 1:08:42 GMT
I'm a Skorne player primarily, so I do feel the pain too. One thing we've done locally is only played theme against theme and not and against not. So Skorne and CoC players get some games with more varied lists. I will sometimes play against themes with what I regard as very good Skorne lists, but I also see it like some sort of DBZ training with weighted clothes thing-- it's not a fair fight but it will get you better when the fair part actually comes. The Skorne theme issue is exasperated by two of their being stuck in a book that's not out for 1.5 months. PP wants to keep something back to get people to buy the book, but since it's so far back from all the other releases the faction ends up playing with a hand tied behind its back. This gets doubly bad when this is the same faction that needed Skornesmas/Hoksunukuh to get back on the same power level as other factions. Yeah. The books and theme release limitations should stop. With the clear trajectory of everything becoming digital, it doesn't make sense to me that they would think that people will be happy to have to wait for books to be released. It simply doesn't suit the hyper competitive nature of the game. I feel that a more consistent release schedule would have made this whole theme business so much more palatable. Something along the lines of : on a set date, each faction gets a theme force, irregardless of timing of books or faction standing, or anything else. Making it really clear on a calendar what's happening for players. With CID proving to be such a success as well, it could have been really easy to do so. Good news for you then, that's the goal of NQ Prime: all new releases not including the last command books but including the Trencher theme models will be in the magazine instead.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jul 21, 2017 2:25:38 GMT
Cryx Themes confirmed are:
Revenants Banes Thralls Living Pirates
What I expect:
Warjack Theme that's actually jack focused like Jaws, Heavy Metal, & DI. Maybe with a sub focus on Iron Lich Models bringing new Iron Lich models that synergize with Warjacks. Dark Alliance Cephalyx theme that's heavily regulated in what Casters (probably limited to Asphyxious2&3 & Deneghra2&3) can be taken and allows a limited amount of Mercenary Cephalyx options that Cryx ordinarily couldn't take. Occult Magic Theme limited to Cryx's spellcasting models
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Post by fistedbyhalaak on Jul 21, 2017 14:56:00 GMT
I think we're having a difference of what is considered "covered" by a theme. I'm stating that you can take them in a list, which is really the objective of expanding themes at the moment. You can play a Feral Warpwolf in theme, which is more than you can say for Druids or Mistwalkers at the moment. And there's no small chance that Blackclad aren't in a beast oriented theme as a two for one. And I think we have the Skorne beast theme in Disciples. It doesn't require you to have free solos from battlegroup, it requires serious battlegroup bonuses. Having the ability to push out Rage and Primal on a faction not designed around it is a huge benefit, and probably better than 2-3 solos in value. Who cares if for example druid wilder is covered when it is only covered in a theme where the only allowed beasts are constructs that NONE of her abilities work on. If a model is not covered in a meaningful way it might as well be left out. I have a feeling they will just place random models in places they do not belong and where they do not contribute in a meaningful way. But that's not where living warbeasts are at the moment. They have use in the other themes beside Bones. You can make the argument that they aren't always the optimal choice, but that's a better place than the stuff that must be kept on the shelf due to theme restrictions. You fix both, but you fix the worst bleeding first. The problem is also exasperated by the fact that Circle has very low internal balance, so very little of the faction reaches the table competitively even without theme considerations.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 21, 2017 15:07:43 GMT
Cygnar seems to have most obvious bases covered now, but there is still some space
- Cygnar Reconnaissance force: Can only take Light Jacks, Blazers, Black 13th, Rangers, Trencher Commandoes, Express Teams
- Some sort of Theme based around the old school Knightly Orders, Sword Knights, Precursors, maybe some new precursor Cavalry, throw in the old Long Gunners well
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 21, 2017 15:38:57 GMT
Cygnar seems to have most obvious bases covered now, but there is still some space - Cygnar Reconnaissance force: Can only take Light Jacks, Blazers, Black 13th, Rangers, Trencher Commandoes, Express Teams - Some sort of Theme based around the old school Knightly Orders, Sword Knights, Precursors, maybe some new precursor Cavalry, throw in the old Long Gunners well Just saying, that if the CRS is anything like the Legion's Children of the Dragon, people are probably going to hate it being locked to lights, more so because Cygnar's non-Trencher, non-Storm Lance/Blade units tend to suck.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 21, 2017 15:41:15 GMT
Cygnar seems to have most obvious bases covered now, but there is still some space - Cygnar Reconnaissance force: Can only take Light Jacks, Blazers, Black 13th, Rangers, Trencher Commandoes, Express Teams - Some sort of Theme based around the old school Knightly Orders, Sword Knights, Precursors, maybe some new precursor Cavalry, throw in the old Long Gunners well Just saying, that if the CRS is anything like the Legion's Children of the Dragon, people are probably going to hate it being locked to lights, more so because Cygnar's non-Trencher, non-Storm Lance/Blade units tend to suck. I never said they were going to be good themes
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 21, 2017 15:42:01 GMT
Theme benefit for CRS: every model/unit gains Ambush.
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Post by darkshroud on Jul 21, 2017 15:51:22 GMT
Dark Alliance Cephalyx theme that's heavily regulated in what Casters (probably limited to Asphyxious2&3 & Deneghra2&3) can be taken and allows a limited amount of Mercenary Cephalyx options that Cryx ordinarily couldn't take. Occult Magic Theme limited to Cryx's spellcasting models the only themes i could find in the old WR was with scaverous and the could only take the overlords and gaspy2 with any cephalyx unit. but that those came out back before they had their own faction. i dont see where people are getting the idea that PP might include them again in mk3 just because of those 2 instances were they were included outside of them being an ally. if it were more, sure. they havent done themes with restricted casters yet, right? so why would you assume they would start just got this very particular instance of 2 units.
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