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Post by sand20go on Jul 17, 2017 21:52:36 GMT
SR 2017 out.
Initial impressions is that it should be decent for the majority of our current "A" tiers. I am most concerned with straight control casters (haley 2; Denny1; Krugar) and "Spread the Net". it is going to be way too easy for those casters to go second, grab that zone, and start score on both players turn. Less brutal still. it will be vital that you put SOMETHING with some killing power opposite their flag or they will put a bone chicken/hunter/fire fly into the square zone and then get the caster over to the flag and win on control.
I also think there is something to be "said" for the possibility of Hillbillies. At least Standoff I could see sniping out a point with them. And they are going to be like gold (see above on Spread the net) with getting in and contesting on a key turn (like bottom of 2/top of 3)
I think Strak2 is happy. There are some challenges (like not enough jacks) but way in which that list gets up the field FAST should be a benefit.
Thoughts? What jumps out at you guys for the lists that you currently run.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 17, 2017 23:43:32 GMT
I'm going to have to play it to see, but it seems like it's going to be hard to win on scenario because there are so many places to score (so it should be possible to score in your own zones even if you can't contest the control 'casters zone). The other thing is that it looks like it's going to split a lot of bricks.
But you'd better believe I'd park an obnoxious bonejack like a Stalker or Helldiver (heh who plays those) in any zone!
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Jul 17, 2017 23:58:29 GMT
I think you're on to something with control casters. Initially in the CID they weren't too suffocating because you required a 6 point lead to win. But when they dropped it down to 5 I noticed the return of the old style of choke someone out on scenario and just stall the game to win, especially since some scenarios it's pretty easy to score 3 on one turn, then pop your control feat, and probably score 2 the next. Wished they would've kept the mercy rule at 6 because even if they went up three, you really had a chance to come back and have a game of it. You were behind sure, but you had a chance. With 5 points though, I find one scenario mistake is harshly, harshly punished. Not quite as bad as mk2, but still bad enough to be a really unfun way to lose a game. Other than that I'm pretty happy with the scenarios. Things like eliminators or min cav are probably going to be really, really, useful to make sure you're covering scenario.
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 18, 2017 0:28:23 GMT
I played a lot of CID for this - agree with previous posters assessments. Don't like the change to 5 for the mercy rule.
I think there is a real place for Kossites now, especially in Jaws. You have to contest those zones or you will get locked out of scenario.
Don't like for our weaker casters like Zerkova2. Her theme will have to be really good to be viable in sr2017. On the other hand both Irusk get a boost with Legion. Hurts Karchev and Harkevich because they are one dimensional jack casters, but maybe Jaws with Kossites is good with them.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 18, 2017 0:38:11 GMT
I'm paying more attention to solos and battle engines in lists. Solos allow to score flags without caster and battle engines can score rectangles without the need to drag the caster bubble there.
Irusk2's feat is very good with new terrain placements. As is Hark's pop out of forest, shot and repo back. Tactical supremacy should enable more things like this.
Feat + jam is valid tactic now that point difference is back to 5.
Since zones are futher apart, models are further apart meaning going in waves is harder and threat ranges become very important. The one with shorter threat may not have the luxury of second wave saving him after he gets alphaed. Spd 4 is even more godawful now, you probably shouldn't take melee jacks if you can't speed them up.
Contesting should be prioritized over anything else. Good rule of thumb is to keep something in every zone/flag every turn. If opponent scores on your turn you're going to lose very fast. The way to achieve scoring on opponent's turn for us is attrition or jam since we lack control. Destroying everything on one flank is a good way to set up scoring, if your other flank remains alive enough to contest you easily win from there. If possible identify the opponent's weak link in unit types. If he has low number of solos/jacks/infantry, you can focus fire them to render him unable to score certain zone types.
Recursion is absurdly good in 2017. Contesting is easy for those lists so they're not losing on mission anytime soon and over 7 turns it snowballs. You have to kill the recurring part of Fleet/Testament army twice if you go for full length game. Having caster with RFP is close to mandatory now. Hopefully Alexia will be allowed in one of our infantry themes to replicate this.
Assassination is harder to do due to bigger killbox. No side killbox means you can just sit on one side and nothing will happen to you. Unless caster commits himself to shooting or melee you're not killing him. On the other hand our squishy casters have easier time staying alive.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 18, 2017 0:46:04 GMT
Are you guys sure that you're going to lose that fast if you aren't contesting every zone? It's a 5 point lead, not just to 5... as long as you are scoring in your own zone you should be able to keep pace and grind them down.
Again I haven't played it yet, but it seems like it's pretty difficult to pull out a scenario win. Depending on the 'caster you are facing you could feasibly actually back off for a turn instead of giving up material to stay scenario-relevant.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 18, 2017 0:57:53 GMT
The math for zones is as follows.
You can reasonably aim to get up to 3 points per turn in every scenario. When it was 6 point difference you needed to do that twice in a row which was incredibly hard without destroying the opponent's army. Now if you get a good turn of 3 points and opponent doesn't lessen the difference, you pick the 2 points that are easiest to obtain (1 of which opponent can't probably reach to meaningfully contest anyway so you're down to 1 point you have to actually work to clear) and contest the rest and you win.
If opponent scores 1 over you on your turn, he's at least 2 points up the next turn which can turn 3 if he dedicates anything to clear any other zone. And 3 is a good spot to be in as previously noted. If he scores 2 over you on your turn, he's at least 4 over you already and can dedicate everything he got to clearing that last zone which is usually game over unless you get really lucky on dice rolls.
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Jul 18, 2017 1:07:45 GMT
Are you guys sure that you're going to lose that fast if you aren't contesting every zone? It's a 5 point lead, not just to 5... as long as you are scoring in your own zone you should be able to keep pace and grind them down. Again I haven't played it yet, but it seems like it's pretty difficult to pull out a scenario win. Depending on the 'caster you are facing you could feasibly actually back off for a turn instead of giving up material to stay scenario-relevant. Yes. Our group played a crap ton of 2017 cid. Scenario is way more live than it appears. The switch to a 5 point lead really changed how scenario played from the beginning.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 18, 2017 2:45:44 GMT
Would having cheap things like Mad dogs and Berserkers help here? Essentially throw away crap to help with contesting while you focus in on other areas? And of course others have jacks that do such a better job than that.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 18, 2017 7:31:56 GMT
I'v been playing on these pretty much exclusively since the CID. Very few changes have happened in the final releases other than the 5 CP cap.
Five CP makes it possible to win on CPs, at 6 is was basically never going to happen. That said, unless you can completely stop your opponent from scoring while scoring multiple things yourself. Winning on CPs still doesn't usually happen before Death Clock or Assassination occurs.
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 18, 2017 11:01:47 GMT
Are you guys sure that you're going to lose that fast if you aren't contesting every zone? It's a 5 point lead, not just to 5... as long as you are scoring in your own zone you should be able to keep pace and grind them down. Again I haven't played it yet, but it seems like it's pretty difficult to pull out a scenario win. Depending on the 'caster you are facing you could feasibly actually back off for a turn instead of giving up material to stay scenario-relevant. Yes. Our group played a crap ton of 2017 cid. Scenario is way more live than it appears. The switch to a 5 point lead really changed how scenario played from the beginning. Yes. Also, unless they changed it solos cannot score a flag.
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Post by GumbaFish on Jul 18, 2017 11:36:47 GMT
Yes. Our group played a crap ton of 2017 cid. Scenario is way more live than it appears. The switch to a 5 point lead really changed how scenario played from the beginning. Yes. Also, unless they changed it solos cannot score a flag. Warcasters and solos are now the only things which can score a flag.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 18, 2017 11:43:11 GMT
Would having cheap things like Mad dogs and Berserkers help here? Essentially throw away crap to help with contesting while you focus in on other areas? And of course others have jacks that do such a better job than that. Berserker aren't so cheap and throwaway anymore since they cost only 1 less than Marauder. Cheap stealth solo and units like elims are good contesters. Generally they can't be removed by shooting and because they take very little board space it's easy to put them somewhere hard to reach behind terrain. Also Ambush is really good now for both contest and offence as some of zones/flags can't be scored without being in Ambush charge/shoot range. Have you played against Troll bears yet? Those things kick ass.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 18, 2017 13:44:34 GMT
Yes and no, it's definatly more of a game than the old 5 cp rush, but you have to play scenario almost ever turn now. If both sides to, its not going to end on scenario. If you don't the side that doesn't is in a real danger of loosing the game.
I think our Jackspams suffer a bit, but in general if you can Jaws a bit with infantry you should be fine. LoS loves the change. Going first creates so many problems for the enemy lists. WGK is not phased at all I think because they were historically diverse but they are not aggressive enough to profit from the change.
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 18, 2017 17:21:47 GMT
Yes. Also, unless they changed it solos cannot score a flag. Warcasters and solos are now the only things which can score a flag. Thanks. Thats great news for us. Actually makes Legion look even better because free IFK hiding behind shield walls.
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