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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 28, 2017 2:09:30 GMT
Has anyone tried heavy Jackspam here? Is it really dead? Like, really? Jacks contests, and your warcaster or unit of mechs can score circles. Your caster, forge Seers or Marksman/wardog can score flags.
I have a tournament this sat. My first in SR17. Karchev is one of my casters and I was thinking about this. Is it too sr2016?
War Room Army
Khador - Karchev's Wolfpack
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - War Dog - PC: 0 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Marauder - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Kodiak - PC: 13
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Behemoth - PC: 25 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
An easy swap is to put in double elims for a Marauder.
This is my other option with 8 jacks, putting in the scouts.
War Room Army
Khador - Karchev's 8 Jaws
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
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Post by warriorofiron on Jul 28, 2017 3:06:20 GMT
This is what ive been tinkering with lately, I think jack heavy lists still work in SR 2017 just gotta play it right conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0x8D7s7s7s7s7t7t7t7thFhF8r8G8GKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf (Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5]
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 28, 2017 3:39:18 GMT
@armchairwarrior I think I like your first list better. Although you have a better chance to score circular zones with the Widowmakers in the second list, I think you will have a stronger ability to contest things with your first list, and Marshalled Behemoth is just very good I need my opinion.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 28, 2017 3:40:33 GMT
Has anyone tried heavy Jackspam here? Is it really dead? Like, really? Jacks contests, and your warcaster or unit of mechs can score circles. Your caster, forge Seers or Marksman/wardog can score flags. Tried it the other day, I got out-scenariod by Cephalyx of all factions. Timewalk feats may no longer be game ending but it still hurts when your opponent scores 4 points in a turn.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 28, 2017 10:17:18 GMT
I don't think its DEAD dead, but it hurts a bit more. But you don't have to do much to stay in it. I currently love my Elimnators. They are really annoying, cheap and can hold zones.
In Jaws (with Strakov) I am always taking something of the following Units (2x Eliminators, mechanics, Widowmaker) and lately I even think about Kossites
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 28, 2017 11:17:41 GMT
Kossites are in a similar boat to Kommandos I feel. Similar, not the same, because they are actually worse off, but basically both of them need just something more to become fully playable. For the kossites, a bit better pow, or maybe CRA/CMA, or better MAT/RAT. They would still be so easy to kill, so not OP at all I don't think, but would then really help our scenario game.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 28, 2017 12:35:19 GMT
Kossites are in a similar boat to Kommandos I feel. Similar, not the same, because they are actually worse off, but basically both of them need just something more to become fully playable. For the kossites, a bit better pow, or maybe CRA/CMA, or better MAT/RAT. They would still be so easy to kill, so not OP at all I don't think, but would then really help our scenario game. I am not entirely sure what they need, but better Rat would do a lot. They are very good Scenario pieces. especially since SR17 is pretty wide. And they are not that easy to kill with Def13 and prowl. Its just they are a bit to expensive for really not doing anything besides that.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 28, 2017 13:43:07 GMT
One can only hope they get a UA, or a CID bone.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 28, 2017 14:02:08 GMT
Kossites are in a similar boat to Kommandos I feel. Similar, not the same, because they are actually worse off, but basically both of them need just something more to become fully playable. For the kossites, a bit better pow, or maybe CRA/CMA, or better MAT/RAT. They would still be so easy to kill, so not OP at all I don't think, but would then really help our scenario game. I am not entirely sure what they need, but better Rat would do a lot. They are very good Scenario pieces. especially since SR17 is pretty wide. And they are not that easy to kill with Def13 and prowl. Its just they are a bit to expensive for really not doing anything besides that. +1. Reworking my Hark list to get hillbillies in. As skathrex notes it is the WIDTH of SR 2017 that allows them REALLY to shine. You have a 50% chance of gettting a scenario that has an infantry zone "wide" (Outlast, Breakdown, and Standoff). You can in outlast, for example, just send the jack wall straight up the middle (yeah pathfinder and mobility) to try to seize the middle and then drop your hillbillies in on whichever flank you need contesting with or even the chance to snipe if he brings his forces to the center to deal with you. Standoff and and Breakdown has a similar "feel" to it. Thus what I currently am going to run with Hark this weekend to mix things up.....in my Hark list. Not SURE this is optimized but very "themey" for Jaws and should be fun. Hark 2 kodiak (sad cloud wall go bye bye) 3 Juggers Greyforge (free) Destroyer Greyforge Manhunter x2 (free) Yuri Kossites (min) Eliminators x2 Might put a Mauarder in there instead of Eliminators but that gives me 7 stealthy Have to test out and tweek but given the way that SR 2017 works it FEELS like eliminators will do more work in there and Juggers do fine murdering Battle engines,. I may drop the Destroyer out of the Greyforge group and put it under Hark - largely a "feel" thing since I am not sure there is a good answer to that.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 31, 2017 0:37:51 GMT
So, I played in a SR2017 tournament this weekend and dropped Karchev twice. The first matchup was against Iron Mother with a Prime Axiom, which I lost at the top of 2 because I never play CoC and didn't understand the threat of domination plus 18" Drag threat...really embarrassing. If I'd played Karchev more conservatively I think this would have been a game. The second match was against Abby 2 in Oracles, which I won. Karchev's feat plus countercharge just piece trades really well.
I played this list.
Khador - Karchev's Wolfpack
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Marauder - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Kodiak - PC: 13
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Behemoth - PC: 25 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
I didn't miss having more units. If anything, I am wondering if I'm better off just going all in on jacks. Here's my straw man.
Khador - Karchev's 9 Lives
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - War Dog - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
My thinking on this:
1. There's another thread on asking questions. This list asks "can you handle 10 well fueled Khador heavies? I've got 340 hard hitting boxes. What did YOU bring? I think most Hordes lists with 5+ heavies will struggle...
2. I have Behemoth and the Eliminators. They're good. But...it's expensive. And, most folks have tech that can deal with 5-6 Khador jacks. Dropping them allows me to bring 9 qualty jacks. Dealing with 5-6 is NOT like eating 9.
3. I didn't love marshaling the Behemoth. Yeah...the guns rocked. But, I'm too freaked out about losing my Jack Marshall and end up losing the melee capabilities and melee threat. Losing the ability to countercharge or Road to War Behemoth is a BIG deal. Now, it might be worth it to drop on Juggernaut (which I won't miss) and one Kodiak (which I will) for big B. Debate! But... 9 jacks, none of which I'm worried about throwing away, allows me to contest more in scenario play and be more aggressive than with 8 and Big B. The ranged utility and late game hammertime threat might be worth it...
4. I still have one unit which can score a zone. I can't remember a time I've lost the whole unit of Mechs... just doesn't happen.
5. Playing 100+ points of jacks gets me the 4th free solo.
I think I'm switching back to B3 in WGK as my pairing because of Ghost Fleet and Cryx. Here's my thinking on the other list.
War Room Army
Khador - Butcher 3 Kommand
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - War Dog - PC: 3 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 10
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
So, if I get dropped into Outlast and a marginal matchup, I've got das Butcher.
Am I nuts?
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Jul 31, 2017 12:59:32 GMT
I think I'm switching back to B3 in WGK as my pairing because of Ghost Fleet and Cryx. Here's my thinking on the other list. Why don't you think that Karchev is fine into GF? They are fine removing 1 jack a turn..and 2 on feat turn. The key here is to play clock attrition..)) I also played Karchev quite fine on the new scenarios. Where you have many zones - you play attrition quite fine as soon as you score 1-2 points. Where the zonez are aligned to the middle - you bully through one flank and then play across .. you won't loose scenario either. In general on SR17. What I didn't like at all is a drop to 5 points mercy rule vs. certain scenarios (those that have a lot of scoring elements). Haley2 just timewalks here against a lot of lists. Scoring solos has made it much easier for her as she can freely move to perfect feat positioning. I think these 2 scenarios should have stayed at 6 points mercy. So the target of discouraging control casters has utterly falied here imo. Overal the scenarios are fine for normal play )
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 31, 2017 13:58:04 GMT
zeffidBased on my tournament experience on Saturday I think a Karchev v Denny matchup is heavily skewed into Denny. Without RFP in the list you can't win the attrition game. When you kill dudes, you're just opening up more charge lanes. You just don't have the volume of attacks. Your lead jacks are at ARM 17 and 18, and he's getting POW 11 charges and POW 12 gang guns. 1/3 of his rolls are dice spikes. It's bad. And there are too many dudes in the way so Denny just sits back and laughs (a maniacal Cryxian laughter). If one of your jacks gets to close, a machine wraith just jumps in and walks you back (and turns you arround, and hits another jack). Without RFP, an occult theme list might work if you have a way to deliver the doom reavers. Magic spray ponies with apparition and battle wizard will waste a lot of dudes. Heck, Karchev with a unit of ponies and 7 heavies might be worth a spin...use countercharge and RTW to just get your jacks as far and as fast upfield as possible on the first 3 turns (one of those being a totally wasted feat turn).
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