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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 11:31:03 GMT
Other than making (some) of the models with Ghost Shot free, Ghost Fleet does nothing for Ghost Shot. The theme makes the list better of course, but you can play a similar list with just as much Ghost Shots out if theme if you want. So... why is this combo overdue for a change? Not specifically Fleet + Ghost shot. Just Ghost shot. It isn't played anywhere else except Fleet because why do that, but it's still a stupid ability. They nerfed Eyeless sight exactly because it ignored too many rule pages for free and Reclaimer got nerfed exactly because his assassination was ridiculously long and potent. Ghost shot combines both of those. Make it non-warcaster so pirate rifleman still can ping away solos and UAs and be done with it. Skorne also has Ghost Shot and Phantom Seeker is even more ridiculous than Ghost Shot (also ignores Stealth). Just sayin' Making an ability like that only work on non-warcasters would be very counter-intuitive as the effect is not applied to the warcaster at all, unlike, for instance, control abilities or certain pushes.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 18, 2017 11:31:24 GMT
DEF is a stat that goes from useless to broken very very fast. Needing 18 (RAT + DICE) to hit before terrain with most ranged attacks on a recursing incorporeal model is not reasonable, needing a POW+Dice of 24 (ARM 24+5 life+1 focus) is also not trivial. Must everything revolve around KD?
Haley3 is very interesting, the time recursion is cool and the echoes are a bit too anime for me but they are a good idea. Unfortunately, on the table what all I see is lucricous stats, no recursion and thorn running around throwing force hammers around. Very inventive, very new.
I guess I just don't see a warcaster unit being hard to kill as a problem, like I said, we could make everything vanilla, but that is not fun. I agree that Haley 3 does not utilise recursion that often, but that is because Revive is still Cost 3 for some inexplicable reason!
I think they are a lot tougher than hard to kill. The echoes are miles beyong what any other caster unit is hard to kill... they are harder to kill than most casters. And casters don't contest!
To more interesting talk... I'm not sure revive should cost 2 (Go for spam!), I'm pretty sure it can't give combat action and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work at cost 3 as is (there are at least 2 casters with cost 2 revives and they aren't playing either...). Perhaps make them incorporeal/non-contesting until your next turn as they coalesce/get back from the dead/whatever?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 11:36:59 GMT
I guess I just don't see a warcaster unit being hard to kill as a problem, like I said, we could make everything vanilla, but that is not fun. I agree that Haley 3 does not utilise recursion that often, but that is because Revive is still Cost 3 for some inexplicable reason!
I think they are a lot tougher than hard to kill. The echoes are miles beyong what any other caster unit is hard to kill... they are harder to kill than most casters. And casters don't contest!
To more interesting talk... I'm not sure revive should cost 2 (Go for spam!), I'm pretty sure it can't give combat action and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work at cost 3 as is (there are at least 2 casters with cost 2 revives and they aren't playing either...). Perhaps make them incorporeal/non-contesting until your next turn as they coalesce/get back from the dead/whatever?
I'm pretty sure that the only reason that Revive still costs 3 is that PP didn't want Haley 3 pumping out 4+ per turn. It indeed doesn't make much sense that even though it is mechanically identical (the ones with cost 2 have Undead or Living restrictions, but that's not relevant in Cygnar) but costs 1 more, other than that the cost is a balancing act for that specific caster. If she really wanted to, on feat turn at COST 2, without upkeeping baby Haley, she would be able to cast 7, which would be a bit too much.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 18, 2017 12:10:58 GMT
Other than making (some) of the models with Ghost Shot free, Ghost Fleet does nothing for Ghost Shot. The theme makes the list better of course, but you can play a similar list with just as much Ghost Shots out if theme if you want. So... why is this combo overdue for a change? Not specifically Fleet + Ghost shot. Just Ghost shot. It isn't played anywhere else except Fleet because why do that, but it's still a stupid ability. They nerfed Eyeless sight exactly because it ignored too many rule pages for free and Reclaimer got nerfed exactly because his assassination was ridiculously long and potent. Ghost shot combines both of those. Make it non-warcaster so pirate rifleman still can ping away solos and UAs and be done with it. Ghost Shot is now only on the Riflemen. Not the end of the world. Kaelyssa can put Phantom Hunter on three jacks (or herself, if Dispel or Energy Siphon comes up). Granted, she doesn't have Denny1's ARM fix, but we can live with that too.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 12:25:05 GMT
Not specifically Fleet + Ghost shot. Just Ghost shot. It isn't played anywhere else except Fleet because why do that, but it's still a stupid ability. They nerfed Eyeless sight exactly because it ignored too many rule pages for free and Reclaimer got nerfed exactly because his assassination was ridiculously long and potent. Ghost shot combines both of those. Make it non-warcaster so pirate rifleman still can ping away solos and UAs and be done with it. Ghost Shot is now only on the Riflemen. Not the end of the world. Kaelyssa can put Phantom Hunter on three jacks (or herself, if Dispel or Energy Siphon comes up). Granted, she doesn't have Denny1's ARM fix, but we can live with that too. Kaelyss has base True Sight, so doesn't need Phantom Hunter very often. I actually do think it's kind of weird that they decided to put Ghost Shot on the Riflemen while taking it away from the Cannon Crew in the transition. However, Revenant Riflemen and the Phantom Seeker are one of the very few ways Cryx has to get to support models, so they do fill a valuable niche.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 18, 2017 13:05:28 GMT
Ghost Shot is now only on the Riflemen. Not the end of the world. Kaelyssa can put Phantom Hunter on three jacks (or herself, if Dispel or Energy Siphon comes up). Granted, she doesn't have Denny1's ARM fix, but we can live with that too. Kaelyss has base True Sight, so doesn't need Phantom Hunter very often. I actually do think it's kind of weird that they decided to put Ghost Shot on the Riflemen while taking it away from the Cannon Crew in the transition. However, Revenant Riflemen and the Phantom Seeker are one of the very few ways Cryx has to get to support models, so they do fill a valuable niche. Not often, but ignoring LOS can matter. Regardless, neither Phantom Hunter nor Ghost Shot ruins the game. For me the fact that every Ghost Fleet list has Blackbane's, a Wraith Engine, and a couple of solos that are all Incorporeal is a much bigger advantage in the current theme force dominated meta (which is also another reason I have my doubts about opening those up to merc options is a good idea, but we'll see how that actually gets implemented) than Ghost Shot on Riflemen.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 18, 2017 13:10:50 GMT
Kaelyssa pays a lot of focus for it.
I'm not competent in Skorne, but didn't they have like 3/5 Skorne team win something lately? And apparently all had said Ghost shot model in their list pair. Really makes you think, huh.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 13:16:40 GMT
Kaelyssa pays a lot of focus for it. I'm not competent in Skorne, but didn't they have like 3/5 Skorne team win something lately? And apparently all had said Ghost shot model in their list pair. Really makes you think, huh. She pays 2 focus for it per jack, which can be a Colossal, which can boost, Riflemen can not boost. She doesn't need it herself because True Sight ignores both LoS and Stealth. Claiming that Ghost Shot is the sole reason that people win games seems a bit hyperbolic. I'm not saying Ghost Shot isn't strong, because it is, but when playing against Ghost Fleet, or the Skorne models in question, I see it as a minor annoyance that I have to keep in mind, not something that will wipe me off the table.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 18, 2017 13:34:09 GMT
Kaelyssa pays a lot of focus for it. I'm not competent in Skorne, but didn't they have like 3/5 Skorne team win something lately? And apparently all had said Ghost shot model in their list pair. Really makes you think, huh. Yup. But she gets to put it on models that can boost shots and has a bunch of focus support to make up for not allocating as much. As for Skorne, both their models with Ghost Shot are pretty damn good for several reasons other than Ghost Shot. Nobody's going to disregard Ghost Shot on them, but they bring a lot more than that.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 18, 2017 13:37:30 GMT
[Kaelyssa] doesn't need it herself because True Sight ignores both LoS and Stealth. True Sight ignores clouds for the purpose of LOS. Not LOS altogether.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 13:40:40 GMT
[Kaelyssa] doesn't need it herself because True Sight ignores both LoS and Stealth. True Sight ignores clouds for the purpose of LOS. Not LOS altogether. Ah, you're right, I missed that part.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 18, 2017 16:10:00 GMT
I totally support PPs decision to slow down hot fixes and give the meta time to sort itself out. This pretty much has been my opinion since day one. I applaud anything that PP can do to discourage whining and crying on the forums as the default first step towards trying to find solutions to a problem* As to the other two questions. No, I don't think PP decided to stop hot fixes now that their poster girls are top dogs. That would imply that I accept that they're on top, which I don't. Also, regarding the second question, I do think that they could have been solvable, but it would have been a solution that didn't lined up with their All Themes philosophy (you can't have everyone breaking theme to solve all those boogeymen) *proven broken shit should still be fixed through patches though Disagree here. I think - as far as it goes - L&L results are the best guage and it is clear that the twins are in a better spot than anyone else in a 2-3 list format with limited/no specialists. There are other variants that minimize their power but overall the results of the weekend seem pretty compelling evidence that they represent a problem. Results from both Masters and IG are suggestive of a real problem. Now ALL THAT SAID I would agree that before hitting them with a nerf stick we need to first understand the impact of the Lance nerf and 2 get a gauge whether there is an increase in the overall prevalence of RFP. For example, Ghost Fleet probably is weakened significantly by the mercenary in themes CID being currently digested. Both of the above could have a significant impact on the ability of the "meta to sort itself out" and thus warrent a "time out" until an additional set of data points are gathered.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 18, 2017 16:18:24 GMT
That's really not true, at least insofar as Haley2 goes. She could have her feat gain a caveat (LOS, shakeable, etc,) she could swap TK for a spell that gives a 3" push on an enemy model...lots of things. I think all of those suggestions, which I have seen before, are very poor fixes. As I said, I want a full redesign. Haley2's feat will never be weakened enough to not be complained about. It should just be changed to something entirely different. I think it is the package. I think PP would be wise to look at Haley's _THREE_ strong control elements (she actually has several more but these are my top 3) of TK, FEAT, and Disruption on Thorn and think hard about removing 1 and then testing. I PERSONALLY think her feat has been nerfed enough. So I would look at TK and I think at least ONE option would be to simply rework that spell with one change - you can not change the model's facing. That would still allow you to move it out of zones and open up possibilities. What it WOULDN"T do is effectively deny charges and open up 4 Dice Gaston Shots. Now that said - what Haley DOES do is encourage GarCol running and I get why that is an important thing for PP.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 18, 2017 17:00:26 GMT
Disagree here. I think - as far as it goes - L&L results are the best guage and it is clear that the twins are in a better spot than anyone else in a 2-3 list format with limited/no specialists. There are other variants that minimize their power but overall the results of the weekend seem pretty compelling evidence that they represent a problem. Results from both Masters and IG are suggestive of a real problem. You're ignoring the fact that in the same weekend, Khador dominated the Australian scene in Wintercon. Also, Top 4 in Iron Guantlet had Legion and I forget who else. Keith Christianson, the Cygnar player in the Masters finals, has been playing Cygnar AND Cryx for a while (having won WMW a few years back, when Cygnar players were all "Cygnar, Mwaaah! " ). Those guys didn't get there carried by their faction choice. It is not a coincidence that you frequently see the same names in the big shows.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 18, 2017 17:24:36 GMT
Disagree here. I think - as far as it goes - L&L results are the best guage and it is clear that the twins are in a better spot than anyone else in a 2-3 list format with limited/no specialists. There are other variants that minimize their power but overall the results of the weekend seem pretty compelling evidence that they represent a problem. Results from both Masters and IG are suggestive of a real problem. You're ignoring the fact that in the same weekend, Khador dominated the Australian scene in Wintercon. Also, Top 4 in Iron Guantlet had Legion and I forget who else. Keith Christianson, the Cygnar player in the Masters finals, has been playing Cygnar AND Cryx for a while (having won WMW a few years back, when Cygnar players were all "Cygnar, Mwaaah! " ). Those guys didn't get there carried by their faction choice. It is not a coincidence that you frequently see the same names in the big shows. I am making 2 important assumptions which I feel reasonably confident in making but I concede they flat out that they are assumptions which I don't know how to empirically test. 1) If you are traveling to multiple conventions in a competitive mindset you can play whichever faction you want - from either owning, borrowing, trading or selling/buying. This is akin (to a degree) of noting in the 1980s that ProStaff's where the club of Choice on the PGA tour. Did that mean that ProStaff's "carried" the best players? No. It is that with a plethora of choices and options and testing and focus that was the stick the best players in the world chose. 2) Australia's current population (for the whole country) is 23 million. That is remarkably close to the entire population of Southern California (excluding Baja for which, if we added, we would be at about 26.5 million. So the Australian results are akin - broadly - to Kingdom Con. Conversely, you could make a strong argument that WMW and L&L are really the only "national" conventions drawing from all over the country. Even then, I would concede, L&L had a more Pacific NW/BC flavor that a truly "national" even but only PP knows the percentage of ticket holders from outside a days drive and how many rooms they filled in how big a room block.
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