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Post by jisidro on Jul 17, 2017 10:46:31 GMT
I tried to find it but couldn't (if someone knows where it is plz link it.). PP announced at L&L that the errata cycles are slowing down and that they expect the meta to sort itself out before applying Dev bombs (my words, not PP's). This is IMO a good idea, I defended this approach on most(all?) of the MK3 nerfs.
I have two questiosn for you guys:
- Do you think that the sisters being head and shoulders above the rest (And ready for chopping) was a factor to this decision?
- In direct opposition to the stated intent but do you think the nerfed crew was solvable by meta and release evolution?
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Post by Aegis on Jul 17, 2017 10:59:25 GMT
You actually forgot one of the sisters into the list... Haley1... And she didn't even needed to be OP to be nerfed to the ground. Or maybe PP was actually trying to nerf Haley2, but she used her temporal powers to deflect the nerf on her past self.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 17, 2017 11:07:27 GMT
You actually forgot one of the sisters into the list... Haley1... And she didn't even needed to be OP to be nerfed to the ground. Or maybe PP was actually trying to nerf Haley2, but she used her temporal powers to deflect the nerf on her past self.
Exactly what I thought!
Yes, H1 was mightly nerfed. I read somewhere that it was because of Hurricane KD + her disruption spell combo.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 17, 2017 11:26:12 GMT
You actually forgot one of the sisters into the list... Haley1... And she didn't even needed to be OP to be nerfed to the ground. Or maybe PP was actually trying to nerf Haley2, but she used her temporal powers to deflect the nerf on her past self.
Exactly what I thought!
Yes, H1 was mightly nerfed. I read somewhere that it was because of Hurricane KD + her disruption spell combo.
Sure, but KD + Disruption is not something unique to H1. That said, if the combo was a problem, they could have removed her SPD debuff and changed it to something else (or just decrease the cost) without making it an auto-suicide button or adding a -1 WJ point for still unknown reasons (its not that without that WJ point she can't take a double hurricane anyway...) on the top of it. But that is just me venting, keep up with your topic!
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 17, 2017 11:26:33 GMT
Madrak 2: Already solved by the meta. He wasn't winning anything. if anything he got nerfed due to be a negative experience for new players. Wurmwood: He was good, but he certainly already had solutions. Everyone did need a Wurmwood drop however and that isn't really healthy. Una2: She was insane. Certain factions were literally unplayable into her and they were from day 1 Karchev: Same applies here, you can't solve the list. Most factions had zero options.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jul 17, 2017 11:28:20 GMT
I'm not sure I understand this topic/question. But it sounds like you are trying to point out that PP have said that they aren't planning to do any more nerfs for a while. And you feel bad for the casters mentioned in the title, who were nerfed over the past year.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 17, 2017 11:28:54 GMT
All of the changes to Madrak 1 & 2 this edition have been a comedy of errors
First off they swapped their feats around, their reasoning being 'it made more thematic sense' as Madrak 2 is the crazier one, he should have Beserk and Overtake, this had the result of making Madrak 2 much more powerful, while largely consigning Madrak 1 to the dustbin (so Troll players tell me).
They then had to change Grim Salvation so that it no longer stopped things like 2 handed throws and spells, but as it is now basic attack it does not work against thresher and some other star attacks (try explaining that to a new player)
They then realised that Madrak surfing through an entire army was maybe too good, so they have to change his feat to not affect himself, although that originally was the reason why they swapped the feats in the first place!
the whole thing has been an utter joke
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Post by pangurban on Jul 17, 2017 11:42:21 GMT
The meta can't sort out anything and everything on its own. If PP thinks they're at a point where they can slow down errata and don't need quick fix errata to deal with overpowered stuff that's because they feel the game is balanced well enough (and new releases get vetted well enough) now, not because the game's self-regulating mechanics suddenly became a lot better. I'm in favour of PP applying the nerf stick when they think they have to. I don't always agree with their assessment of what requires a nerf and I certainly don't always agree with the extent if the nerfs, but that doesn't mean I'm in favour of a neverending wait and see policy either. Remember Mk II? For the first 90% or so of that edition, stuff that most of us agreed was egregiously strong and had a negative effect on the competitive meta was allowed to stay unchanged and in some cases it even was improved by new releases. And then at the end of the edition a nerf became inevitable?
Tl;dr: we needed less and less severe nerfs than we got, but when we do need a nerf I'm not interested in waiting for the meta to sort it out.
Addendum: same with buffs, except we didn't get as many of those as we could have used.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 17, 2017 12:35:24 GMT
All of the changes to Madrak 1 & 2 this edition have been a comedy of errors First off they swapped their feats around, their reasoning being 'it made more thematic sense' as Madrak 2 is the crazier one, he should have Beserk and Overtake, this had the result of making Madrak 2 much more powerful, while largely consigning Madrak 1 to the dustbin (so Troll players tell me). They then had to change Grim Salvation so that it no longer stopped things like 2 handed throws and spells, but as it is now basic attack it does not work against thresher and some other star attacks (try explaining that to a new player) They then realised that Madrak surfing through an entire army was maybe too good, so they have to change his feat to not affect himself, although that originally was the reason why they swapped the feats in the first place! the whole thing has been an utter joke You have an incredibly strong grasp of the entire situation considering you don't play Trolls
Everything you said is spot on.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 17, 2017 13:55:48 GMT
I'm not sure I understand this topic/question. But it sounds like you are trying to point out that PP have said that they aren't planning to do any more nerfs for a while. And you feel bad for the casters mentioned in the title, who were nerfed over the past year.
Pretty much that, with the extra sause of the nerf bat stopping short of Haley2/Denny1 (two casters "dominating" tournament results, at least as much as the named casters before they got rebalanced)... Coincidence?
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 17, 2017 21:50:50 GMT
Karchev, Una, Reclaimer, Wurmwood, Madrak 2 were mistakes that shouldn't even made it past competent testing in the first place. I think "mistake" in this context can be described as something that produces a win with very little specific counterplay that requires very specific model inclusion.
Nemo 3 + lances interaction is also in the same mistake tier but it's getting fixed thankfully.
Ghost shot in Fleet is long overdue for a change.
Thankfully we have cid now so major mistakes shouldn't appear. Doomie 3 with some new release and Mow theme is on my personal watch list of possibly broken.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 17, 2017 22:53:43 GMT
Ghost shot in Fleet is long overdue for a change. Other than making (some) of the models with Ghost Shot free, Ghost Fleet does nothing for Ghost Shot. The theme makes the list better of course, but you can play a similar list with just as much Ghost Shots out if theme if you want. So... why is this combo overdue for a change?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 17, 2017 23:05:09 GMT
I totally support PPs decision to slow down hot fixes and give the meta time to sort itself out. This pretty much has been my opinion since day one.
I applaud anything that PP can do to discourage whining and crying on the forums as the default first step towards trying to find solutions to a problem*
As to the other two questions. No, I don't think PP decided to stop hot fixes now that their poster girls are top dogs. That would imply that I accept that they're on top, which I don't.
Also, regarding the second question, I do think that they could have been solvable, but it would have been a solution that didn't lined up with their All Themes philosophy (you can't have everyone breaking theme to solve all those boogeymen)
*proven broken shit should still be fixed through patches though
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 17, 2017 23:24:58 GMT
Ghost shot in Fleet is long overdue for a change. Other than making (some) of the models with Ghost Shot free, Ghost Fleet does nothing for Ghost Shot. The theme makes the list better of course, but you can play a similar list with just as much Ghost Shots out if theme if you want. So... why is this combo overdue for a change? Exactly, people say it's OP but FFS the only thing that changed is more consistent Recursion. You want to fix this, then you have to change both Haley twins.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 17, 2017 23:32:59 GMT
Other than making (some) of the models with Ghost Shot free, Ghost Fleet does nothing for Ghost Shot. The theme makes the list better of course, but you can play a similar list with just as much Ghost Shots out if theme if you want. So... why is this combo overdue for a change? Exactly, people say it's OP but FFS the only thing that changed is more consistent Recursion. You want to fix this, then you have to change both Haley twins. Let's not devolve into haggling over nerfs. This isn't about quid pro quo. There's nothing to fix in the first place.
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