Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 21, 2017 13:17:00 GMT
Mak1 doesn't have stay death, that's mak2. Mak1 has an ability, on feat turn only, to take 1 damage in order to keep a warrior model from dying. It also gives all models retaliatory strike for a turn. Mak2 has stay death and it's a regular ability where, instead of suffering damage, she can spend 1 of her fury in order to keep a warrior grunt from dying (doesn't work on solos, named models, or attachments) However, Mak2s basic spell list generally leaves her on a maximum of 3 fury per turn. Dash (2) and Deflection (3) are per round or turn, not upkeep spells. Her Storm Rager (3) spell, and only upkeep spell is also a must have, taking her base of 6 fury down to 5. Dash (increase warrior speed by 1 and grant parry) and deflection (+2 def against ranged and magic) are both spells that make her normal lists accel. Only when she is running the crazy cat lady list does stay death even show its worth. On the other hand, if Harby had Stay Death, she'd start off with 10 focus. Considering the rarity of ever casting Cataclysm (it's only useful when a target is close enough that she'd get killed), she could be easily sitting on 6 focus, the maximum amount that Mak2 could have if she casted NO spells or upkeeps. On her, especially with how OP Menoth's infantry is in comparison to Skorne's, Stay Death would be like having an endless number of enemies. 2 cinerator units and a bastion unit with senechal... immortal much? As for the issue with ctrl and it being "too large" for her feat, her feat is actually pretty useless in comparison to other models. Even if you take JUST Feora1's feat, which automatically hits all enemy models in her ctrl with continuous fire, that is a much better feat than "if you end your movement closer to her you get hit with a pow 14 fire." Not only that but you already have feats like Sorcha's stationary and Kreoss' knockdown, which do the same thing, only more effectively. tbh, since her feat doesn't even put continuous fire on the target, it could be an auto 14 damage to all models in her ctrl and all it would amount to is something similar to caine's ability to shoot everything within LoS with his magical guns. Edit: this is why I have mentioned that the main advantage that warmachine has over hordes is the prowess of their casters over locks. If you are not abusing your casters to their fullest extent when playing against a hordes army then you are not playing against hordes correctly x.O; I mean you've played against or play mak2 differently than what I've seen. I've seen her as a ignore spell list be a stay death bot. Your solo no character point is important though This was my experience as well.
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Oct 21, 2017 16:24:16 GMT
Like I said, if they gave her stay death, they could also knock her down to 6-7 FOC with a new ability that gives her 3-4 extra focus she can only use on allocation or casting spells (similar to Sevy2's arcane power ability). That limits stay death to reasonable levels and allows her feat to go back to CTRL as well. Purification could also be given a much needed buff to only dispel enemy upkeeps and continuous effects on friendly models.
Shed still play like a 10 focus caster for all intents and purposes; she just wouldnt get all the benefits of FOC10. Her feat would go back upto 12"-14" where it needs to be. It fixes the ability to abuse martyrdom with solos like the allegiant because stay death only works on troopers. Harbinger no longer needs to cut herself to dangerous levels. Also purification can get buffed. And we end up with a Harbinger thats actually competitive. Its win win win win.
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Post by W0lfBane on Oct 21, 2017 18:07:18 GMT
Like I said, if they gave her stay death, they could also knock her down to 6-7 FOC with a new ability that gives her 3-4 extra focus she can only use on allocation or casting spells (similar to Sevy2's arcane power ability). That limits stay death to reasonable levels and allows her feat to go back to CTRL as well. Purification could also be given a much needed buff to only dispel enemy upkeeps and continuous effects on friendly models. Shed still play like a 10 focus caster for all intents and purposes; she just wouldnt get all the benefits of FOC10. Her feat would go back upto 12"-14" where it needs to be. It fixes the ability to abuse martyrdom with solos like the allegiant because stay death only works on troopers. Harbinger no longer needs to cut herself to dangerous levels. Also purification can get buffed. And we end up with a Harbinger thats actually competitive. Its win win win win. They can do a lot of things to make her more viable. Like make her feat a full heal for her. Make it so she can reduce the damage from martrydom once per turn using focus. Have her heal d3 every time she spends a focus rather than just 1. Increase her cmd so she can stay further back. She don't necessarily needs to gain stay death. Heck just increasing her boxes could help.
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Oct 21, 2017 18:17:11 GMT
yeah but even if you make her feat heal her to full or make her heal 1d3 per point of focus you still have the problem of Harbinger being dangerously low on health during the opponents turn.
thats kindve the whole point of changing it to stay death, she wouldnt have to cut herself to near-death on the opponent's turn.
harbinger being so squishy in the first place and then having to nearly kill herself to use her best ability is what needs to be fixed. Especially since other casters like makeda essentially get the same thing but without the huge downside of having to mostly kill themselves each turn. martyrdom has become antiquated and outdated in MK3. It needs an update so its every bit as good as stay death.
consolidating martyrdom into stay death still makes the most sense to me. Since MK3 was all about rules consolidation anyway.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 21, 2017 20:13:44 GMT
From my experience Harby is my drop into many Hordes armies and an excellent one into Mak2 double cats (quite a few games here). I even stopped taking her in my friendly games against my regular casual opponent, because our matches Harby vs Mak2 were so one-sided. Awe works great as mentioned, even on Makeda's feat turn cats have around 50-50 chance of hitting and have no way of dealing with Martyrdom. Outside the feat turn they just don't hit anything, unless charging, but we heave our own feat for that. Flamebringers with an extra dice on the first attack roll can mince them pretty easily, especially if they get the charge for 4 dice and easy crits. Allegiants are just straight unkillable. I play her outside theme so I can have Flamebringers, Exemplar Knights, Rhoven, Eye of Truth, Allegiants and Anastasia all at the same time Despite being ~15pts down, I've had a lot of good games with her, even against top quality opponents (last few tournaments in Warsaw just felt like training grounds for our WTC teams with more WTC players than other ones ) and this is what I mean when I say warmachine needs to abuse their warcasters against hordes. Mak2 double kitty can take care of martyrdom now, thanks to MoW, but kitties only have a mat of 6. They do not have the ability to just trample over everything and their assassination attempts are combined arms jump attacks with large bases, meaning even getting them all on the caster is a joke. Rhadiem and Molik Karn are the only models Harby needs to really worry about when facing against the crazy cat lady. Rhadiem will have +2 mat (negating the negative 2) on one hell of a powerful charge, and Molik Karn can end her pretty easily if he gets the lane for it, especially on feat turn. The crazy cat lady list was made more for scenario than assassination, as it can get up the field and dominate pretty easily. When the kitties are given tough from willbringers and our support is in play, they can easily take zones and hold them.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 21, 2017 20:19:45 GMT
also, yeah, Mak2 is not a stay death bot x.O; If that's how she was being used in your games, that's fine, but you'd be an idiot not to use Storm Rager on rhadiem or claim zones first turn with Dash. I'll ignore the comment about me "not playing games" since it's a troll bait attack.
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Post by W0lfBane on Oct 21, 2017 21:21:46 GMT
also, yeah, Mak2 is not a stay death bot x.O; If that's how she was being used in your games, that's fine, but you'd be an idiot not to use Storm Rager on rhadiem or claim zones first turn with Dash. I'll ignore the comment about me "not playing games" since it's a troll bait attack. Says the guy calling my opponents idiots. Also how badly do you need dash when you're running all fast cav
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Oct 21, 2017 22:25:51 GMT
"stay death bot" pretty aptly describes her.
it doesnt mean stay death is all she does. but its by far the most consistent and frequent thing she spends her fury on.
makedas spells are good but theyre mostly spells you only cast once or twice per game. and she almost never casts more than one spell a turn. because she wants to maximize how much she can use stay death.
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Post by k0rhil on Oct 22, 2017 19:27:36 GMT
Elias has made it onto the table for me over the weekend(shame on me for playing unpainted but hey I was curious to give him a try). I have to admit I kind of love the kit now as of so far I’ve only played him in the exemplar theme with vinny, testament, and kreoss and my loadout is full errants and the senny. Pathfinder is great on the errants( I didn’t play protectorate in mk2 but now I see why they were across the table so often) the command bubble doesn’t bother me as I like having sac targets in case of shooting duels. Prey and true sight are also fantastic gaspy2s cloud wall was pretty bummed when his bane ca wasn’t as safe as he thought and even if ur prey target avoids u it allows u to dictate the battle line which can be a huge swing.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Nov 2, 2017 20:43:34 GMT
Champion is up on war room. So still an expensive dragoon with a lacklustre leadership ability. Won’t be buying it for now as I don’t see what role it fills for it’s cost.
Edited for changes: mount now has critical knockdown and dismounted pala has tough.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 2, 2017 21:53:38 GMT
Champion is up on war room. No changes. So still an expensive dragoon with a lacklustre leadership ability. Won’t be buying it for now as I don’t see what role it fills for it’s cost. Well, he has both retaliotory and girded, but only grants the latter to the others. His role is a fast, difficult to remove solo who has mini vengeance if something around him dies. He has 3 attacks effectively, not counting righteous vengeance. Great for ramming into a low power unit. At least vilmon will be an official baby sitter now with shield guard and girded.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Nov 2, 2017 22:05:24 GMT
Champion is up on war room. No changes. So still an expensive dragoon with a lacklustre leadership ability. Won’t be buying it for now as I don’t see what role it fills for it’s cost. Well, he has both retaliotory and girded, but only grants the latter to the others. His role is a fast, difficult to remove solo who has mini vengeance if something around him dies. He has 3 attacks effectively, not counting righteous vengeance. Great for ramming into a low power unit. At least vilmon will be an official baby sitter now with shield guard and girded. if you kept the champion within 9" of Vilmon, he wouldnt be doing any of the stuff you described above. Not to mention allegiants are far better at the difficult to remove solo and hugely cheaper. Plus he has the rubbish lance rule and 1 inch reach on righteous vengeance so easily gamed. Jack of all master of none describe him perfectly but hes too expensive to be so wishy washy.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 2, 2017 22:26:27 GMT
Well, he has both retaliotory and girded, but only grants the latter to the others. His role is a fast, difficult to remove solo who has mini vengeance if something around him dies. He has 3 attacks effectively, not counting righteous vengeance. Great for ramming into a low power unit. At least vilmon will be an official baby sitter now with shield guard and girded. if you kept the champion within 9" of Vilmon, he wouldnt be doing any of the stuff you described above. Not to mention allegiants are far better at the difficult to remove solo and hugely cheaper. Plus he has the rubbish lance rule and 1 inch reach on righteous vengeance so easily gamed. Jack of all master of none describe him perfectly but hes too expensive to be so wishy washy. Monks would be 'difficult to remove' if they had, I dunno, girded. Champ + monks may be a an interestingly irritating flank team.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Nov 2, 2017 22:45:58 GMT
maybe. Thats 11 points... why not just take a vigilant? the extra point gives you the incredibly powerful girded and makes your defense insaneballs. The vig will also have two open fists to throw etc, responds well to the same defensive buffs as the pala and has 26 HP - plus can be choired to stop guns.
Though its defo worth testing the alleg/pala combo out.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Nov 2, 2017 23:01:45 GMT
Champion is up on war room. No changes. This is not true.
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