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Post by c0deb1ue on Nov 2, 2017 23:31:18 GMT
Champion is up on war room. No changes. This is not true. No changes that I registered as exciting but some icing.. >> critical knockdown on mount >> dismounted pala has tough anything else? no access to war room presently...
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Post by blydz on Nov 2, 2017 23:40:35 GMT
He lose 2 ARM when dismounted.
So he's still too expensive. 9pt for a dragoon who get his full potential once dismounted... We can do better with what we already have.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 3, 2017 4:59:01 GMT
if he's 9 pts he has to live up to Rhadiem's standards for him to even qualify as a model in my mind.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 3, 2017 7:08:56 GMT
He's not 9 points but since we seem to be complaining about a model without even checking all his rules I guess we might as well just call him 9pts. The hypothetical salt is amazing.
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Post by blydz on Nov 3, 2017 7:51:39 GMT
Oh yes... sorry. He's 8.
Still too expensive. girded still useless (how many blast damage can damage a 20 Arm model ?). What's the point of having 8 Spd if you want give girded to the other paladin in the back lines ? (Who can get 21 Arm). what's the point having retaliatory strike when you have a lance that you can only use in charge ?
So your champ is really useful once he's on foot. but you still pay him 8 pts.... thanks PP !
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Nov 3, 2017 8:10:30 GMT
Sorry, but what are people's expectations for 8 points. I can only compare against cards I own but...
Gravus is 9 points, has 1" reach, no crit knockdown, no shield attack, and a relatively similar leadership/bubble ability. The only way Gravus has of gaining extra attacks is if your own models die near him.
Fenris is 9 points, has 2" reach, a good leadership ability, and the only way of gaining additional attacks is by Berserking, which can hit your own models,no crit knockdown.
The drakhun is probably the most similar, but gains a generic rng2 weapon master blade, and loses almost all his rules when knocked off his horse, and costs a point more.
This guy is a point cheaper than all three, more tanky than gravus and fenris with the shield at arm 20 (equal to the drakhun but champ has higher def), provides a good ability into matchups precisely where it counts for the theme force he's in (squishy dudes who need protection), and has a crazy high pow lance for charges WITH continuous fire, and for non charges a weapon master sword, weapon master shield and a mount with crit knockdown.
Like what more do you want.
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Post by blydz on Nov 3, 2017 8:25:21 GMT
Yeah but at least, Gravus can use all his ability and can run with Vengers.
I don't care about paying 8 or 9 for a solo. IF he provide something useful for what I pay. I agree that Girded fit totally with Paladin. But limited in CMD range and on a mounted model ? No way. retaliatory strike with a lance ? Same.
Call it salt if you want. That not change the fact that is lame.
Now, maybe we can make a missile with him, With Defender Ward you can make him 15 def and 22 Arm (even 17 def against range attack with ashen veil). That's pretty huge. But, he's not at top priority models for DW.... It's just a guess.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Nov 3, 2017 8:49:58 GMT
Sorry, but what are people's expectations for 8 points. I can only compare against cards I own but... Gravus is 9 points, has 1" reach, no crit knockdown, no shield attack, and a relatively similar leadership/bubble ability. The only way Gravus has of gaining extra attacks is if your own models die near him. Fenris is 9 points, has 2" reach, a good leadership ability, and the only way of gaining additional attacks is by Berserking, which can hit your own models,no crit knockdown. The drakhun is probably the most similar, but gains a generic rng2 weapon master blade, and loses almost all his rules when knocked off his horse, and costs a point more. This guy is a point cheaper than all three, more tanky than gravus and fenris with the shield at arm 20 (equal to the drakhun but champ has higher def), provides a good ability into matchups precisely where it counts for the theme force he's in (squishy dudes who need protection), and has a crazy high pow lance for charges WITH continuous fire, and for non charges a weapon master sword, weapon master shield and a mount with crit knockdown. Like what more do you want. I guess something which doesn't have tonnes of not-quite working parts and did more for paladins. None of the below is new as it was all feedback in the CID. >> The Lance rule is not good >> Righteous vengeance is limited by his 1" reach >> In Order to give his other paladins girded (which is in no-way comparable to no knockdown) he has to completely gimp his mobility and stay within 9 inches or they are all running after him and are not in stone&mortar >> the theme force functions by people dying to give HoV so why are you trying to save them all and also how does that actually play out in terms of infantry positioning... squishing a bunch of small bases around another small base so they can be sprayed or all simultaneously engaged by one person with reach. Not to mention the janks around putting them all bases to base without affecting the paladins abilities to vengeance etc an move normally or affecting the units positioning. I can't get around the mindset of spending a tonne of points on paladins to save a few zealots from blast damage. If you are protecting a caster then a Vigilant is 1 point more and far far superior. Allegiants are also generally more survivable than bith this guy and paladins. >> Gravus is widely considered overcosted and sees very little play even in interdiction. 8 points is still very expensive for this guy so not a good comparison. I would gladly let them shave off some of his rule bloat for an effective elite cadre [paladin] which should have been the goal in the first place. Now we still have no reason to play standard palas and there is not even a mention of a CID for them so we are stuck with girded - a highly situational and basically very bland/poor rule for probably bloody ages. Girded didn't do anything in the CID batreps either. He is disappointing in terms of being a wasted opportunity in paladin design space. Hes not terrible by any measure he just isn't anything else either. No-one was looking for anything overpowering - just something more relevant.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 3, 2017 9:53:57 GMT
On the contrary, its exactly for design space and more pallies in the future that the champ doesn't do anything major for them. Effectively the champ is a tough and fast piece that also likes vilmon's cadre. He's not really a support/cadre piece. We can't expect the champ to 'fix' pallies.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Nov 3, 2017 9:54:04 GMT
I think it’s a fairly costed model that doesn’t have an actual use on the table. As an owner of 4 Paladins, I am disappointed.
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Post by blydz on Nov 3, 2017 10:17:38 GMT
On the contrary, its exactly for design space and more pallies in the future that the champ doesn't do anything major for them. Effectively the champ is a tough and fast piece that also likes vilmon's cadre. He's not really a support/cadre piece. We can't expect the champ to 'fix' pallies. Yeah, we all know what PP can do in the name of "the design space"... The last time they use this excuse for Bastion and Delivereres, they drop their changes during CID for something more attractive. Sadly, the CID is just a way to get the community approval for what they do, even when the community say they are wrong. And then we have to wait several months to see some aiming correction from PP when they realize that they were wrong and the community was right. And for now, we have a model that is not really good for others, pretty good for itself, but we have to pay the price for the whole. It's like you pay for a car, but get delivered only the wheels, and the guy who sell it to you ask you to wait for the next stuff, and you don't know if you'll get a super car or some crappy lada from the 40's.
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Post by govinator on Nov 3, 2017 11:40:36 GMT
Food for thought gents - this guy will grant girded to any paladin unit that we get, if we ever get one. THAT could be pretty amazing.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Nov 3, 2017 11:41:34 GMT
Food for thought gents - this guy will grant girded to any paladin unit that we get, if we ever get one. THAT could be pretty amazing. A positive opinion? HERESY 😉
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Post by W0lfBane on Nov 3, 2017 11:45:15 GMT
I mean the champs problem is that all solos are costed too expensively
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Post by Azuresun on Nov 3, 2017 11:51:09 GMT
Sorry, but what are people's expectations for 8 points. I can only compare against cards I own but... See, this is why i think it's far more important for errata to tone down OP stuff before buffing. OP pieces poison everyone's expectations--unless a new piece is equal to the broken stuff, it's trash and useless with no in-between permitted. Though nothing about the Champion really makes me go "holy eff", he seems worth a try as a pure Drakhun-esque slugger I'll also note that anyone who thinks Girded is useless has never played against Grymkin and their Cask Imps.
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