|
Post by bskhacker on Oct 20, 2017 14:11:53 GMT
I would agree she has never been squishier than she is now. A CMD of 10 for her feat is basically acting like she has a focus of 5 for her feat... and she is super squishy... isnt CMD 10 the maximum though? I dont think it goes upto 12. They shouldve just made her FOC6 or FOC7 with an ability that gives her 3-4 extra focus that can only be spent on allocation or spells. Like +3 focus she can only spend on allocation or that Sevvy2 ability that lets him cast a free spell each turn That would give her a 12"-14" ctrl which is entirely reasonable for her feat. And she could have stay death then instead of inferior martyrdom. Honestly they shouldve just given Harbinger stay death and made her FOC6-7 along with a special ability that granted her 3-4 extra focus that could only be spent on allocation or to cast spells. She would still effectively be a 10 focus caster, but without all the benefits of FOC10, and stay death would be balanced on her. They won't give her stay death because of fluff reasons. I think it needs a little adjustment. I feel that it should be on the same power level as stay death.
|
|
khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
|
Post by khobai on Oct 20, 2017 16:25:08 GMT
it needs more than a little adjustment to be on the same power level as stay death
stay death doesnt bring makeda to dangerously low health levels
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Oct 20, 2017 16:27:33 GMT
Are we still talking about how harbinger is bad?....
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Oct 20, 2017 18:54:44 GMT
Martyrdom is quite powerful as it is, and mixed with Awe and our excellent quality high DEF units and solos makes for quite a combo IMO. Harby won't really compete in a contest for the best anti-gunline caster, but against more melee oriented armies she can be a real pain to deal with.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Oct 20, 2017 19:54:52 GMT
Martyrdom is quite powerful as it is, and mixed with Awe and our excellent quality high DEF units and solos makes for quite a combo IMO. Harby won't really compete in a contest for the best anti-gunline caster, but against more melee oriented armies she can be a real pain to deal with. Like darkhost where they can just COS and move through your lines to a very forward postioned harby and kill her (Awe doesn't even work on the undead)? Or are we talking like Band of Heroes or Masters of War which just turn off healing and RFP the models anyway? Most beast or jack melee centric lists will be happy to see harby play that far forward so they can trample through to her. Thing is she has a very VERY narrow grouping of lists that she actually has any reliable play into and in those cases she's hosed by list two in the pair. As she is currently designed Harby has no place in the competitive meta in a two list pairing. If you have examples of faction pairings where you think she has play I'm all ears but presently I just can't see it.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Oct 20, 2017 20:03:02 GMT
Im inclined to agreee with pizza here. She is quite fun all things considered. But i don't think she's competitive.
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Oct 20, 2017 20:37:19 GMT
Or are we talking like Band of Heroes or Masters of War which just turn off healing and RFP the models anyway? Why would they do it ? They get Take Down not Grievous Wounds and they can't RFP a model if Harby martyrs it.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on Oct 20, 2017 22:25:04 GMT
Or are we talking like Band of Heroes or Masters of War which just turn off healing and RFP the models anyway? Why would they do it ? They get Take Down not Grievous Wounds and they can't RFP a model if Harby martyrs it. This. In fact, Harbinger is an AMAZING option into trolls as a whole. I still birng her to tournaments because our usual tournament crowd, by chance, heavily overrepresents trolls.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Oct 20, 2017 23:34:48 GMT
Or are we talking like Band of Heroes or Masters of War which just turn off healing and RFP the models anyway? Why would they do it ? They get Take Down not Grievous Wounds and they can't RFP a model if Harby martyrs it. Looks like you sir are correct. Not sure why I thought that it turned off healing. Doesn't change the fact that both those factions have good shooting options too though. I usually see Kats paired with winds of death or immortal host both of which don't care about harbinger one bit. As for trolls you should count yourself lucky that your group hasn't discovered how good kriel company is yet then.
|
|
khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
|
Post by khobai on Oct 21, 2017 1:08:10 GMT
Im inclined to agreee with pizza here. She is quite fun all things considered. But i don't think she's competitive. I have to agree as well. harbinger should be one of the best, if not the best, infantry attrition casters in the game. but martyrdom just hasnt kept up with the times. stay death is everything martyrdom should be but isnt. also theres no good reason why her feat is only 10".
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Oct 21, 2017 3:27:41 GMT
Im inclined to agreee with pizza here. She is quite fun all things considered. But i don't think she's competitive. I have to agree as well. harbinger should be one of the best, if not the best, infantry attrition casters in the game. but martyrdom just hasnt kept up with the times. stay death is everything martyrdom should be but isnt. also theres no good reason why her feat is only 10". I mean i don't think she should be one of the best. I definately think that her kit is not working as it should be. But i don't see why she needs to be the best. She definately shouldn't be a why bother unless you're interested in a for fun list.
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on Oct 21, 2017 5:53:55 GMT
Mak1 doesn't have stay death, that's mak2. Mak1 has an ability, on feat turn only, to take 1 damage in order to keep a warrior model from dying. It also gives all models retaliatory strike for a turn.
Mak2 has stay death and it's a regular ability where, instead of suffering damage, she can spend 1 of her fury in order to keep a warrior grunt from dying (doesn't work on solos, named models, or attachments) However, Mak2s basic spell list generally leaves her on a maximum of 3 fury per turn. Dash (2) and Deflection (3) are per round or turn, not upkeep spells. Her Storm Rager (3) spell, and only upkeep spell is also a must have, taking her base of 6 fury down to 5. Dash (increase warrior speed by 1 and grant parry) and deflection (+2 def against ranged and magic) are both spells that make her normal lists accel. Only when she is running the crazy cat lady list does stay death even show its worth.
On the other hand, if Harby had Stay Death, she'd start off with 10 focus. Considering the rarity of ever casting Cataclysm (it's only useful when a target is close enough that she'd get killed), she could be easily sitting on 6 focus, the maximum amount that Mak2 could have if she casted NO spells or upkeeps. On her, especially with how OP Menoth's infantry is in comparison to Skorne's, Stay Death would be like having an endless number of enemies. 2 cinerator units and a bastion unit with senechal... immortal much?
As for the issue with ctrl and it being "too large" for her feat, her feat is actually pretty useless in comparison to other models. Even if you take JUST Feora1's feat, which automatically hits all enemy models in her ctrl with continuous fire, that is a much better feat than "if you end your movement closer to her you get hit with a pow 14 fire." Not only that but you already have feats like Sorcha's stationary and Kreoss' knockdown, which do the same thing, only more effectively. tbh, since her feat doesn't even put continuous fire on the target, it could be an auto 14 damage to all models in her ctrl and all it would amount to is something similar to caine's ability to shoot everything within LoS with his magical guns.
Edit: this is why I have mentioned that the main advantage that warmachine has over hordes is the prowess of their casters over locks. If you are not abusing your casters to their fullest extent when playing against a hordes army then you are not playing against hordes correctly x.O;
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Oct 21, 2017 8:43:41 GMT
From my experience Harby is my drop into many Hordes armies and an excellent one into Mak2 double cats (quite a few games here). I even stopped taking her in my friendly games against my regular casual opponent, because our matches Harby vs Mak2 were so one-sided. Awe works great as mentioned, even on Makeda's feat turn cats have around 50-50 chance of hitting and have no way of dealing with Martyrdom. Outside the feat turn they just don't hit anything, unless charging, but we heave our own feat for that. Flamebringers with an extra dice on the first attack roll can mince them pretty easily, especially if they get the charge for 4 dice and easy crits. Allegiants are just straight unkillable. I play her outside theme so I can have Flamebringers, Exemplar Knights, Rhoven, Eye of Truth, Allegiants and Anastasia all at the same time Despite being ~15pts down, I've had a lot of good games with her, even against top quality opponents (last few tournaments in Warsaw just felt like training grounds for our WTC teams with more WTC players than other ones )
|
|
d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
|
Post by d3z on Oct 21, 2017 10:52:27 GMT
I've gone fine with Harby at the local level. The feat works well to keep melee warrior models away from Harby on a key turn, and the armies that aren't scared of the feat are the one that Harby wants to play into anyway (lots of heavies), unless its a gunline (which are on a decline of sorts in SR17). I'm on the same wavelength as Cyel regarding theme - monks are a must-have, but I still want flame bringers and knights. Martyrdom + monks is a particularly joyful combo. In one game, the Cygnar opponent was so desperate to clear a monk from a zone that he punched his own hunter to death with a Stormwall just to land leaps on the monk . Toughed one leap and martyred the other.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Oct 21, 2017 11:36:55 GMT
Mak1 doesn't have stay death, that's mak2. Mak1 has an ability, on feat turn only, to take 1 damage in order to keep a warrior model from dying. It also gives all models retaliatory strike for a turn. Mak2 has stay death and it's a regular ability where, instead of suffering damage, she can spend 1 of her fury in order to keep a warrior grunt from dying (doesn't work on solos, named models, or attachments) However, Mak2s basic spell list generally leaves her on a maximum of 3 fury per turn. Dash (2) and Deflection (3) are per round or turn, not upkeep spells. Her Storm Rager (3) spell, and only upkeep spell is also a must have, taking her base of 6 fury down to 5. Dash (increase warrior speed by 1 and grant parry) and deflection (+2 def against ranged and magic) are both spells that make her normal lists accel. Only when she is running the crazy cat lady list does stay death even show its worth. On the other hand, if Harby had Stay Death, she'd start off with 10 focus. Considering the rarity of ever casting Cataclysm (it's only useful when a target is close enough that she'd get killed), she could be easily sitting on 6 focus, the maximum amount that Mak2 could have if she casted NO spells or upkeeps. On her, especially with how OP Menoth's infantry is in comparison to Skorne's, Stay Death would be like having an endless number of enemies. 2 cinerator units and a bastion unit with senechal... immortal much? As for the issue with ctrl and it being "too large" for her feat, her feat is actually pretty useless in comparison to other models. Even if you take JUST Feora1's feat, which automatically hits all enemy models in her ctrl with continuous fire, that is a much better feat than "if you end your movement closer to her you get hit with a pow 14 fire." Not only that but you already have feats like Sorcha's stationary and Kreoss' knockdown, which do the same thing, only more effectively. tbh, since her feat doesn't even put continuous fire on the target, it could be an auto 14 damage to all models in her ctrl and all it would amount to is something similar to caine's ability to shoot everything within LoS with his magical guns. Edit: this is why I have mentioned that the main advantage that warmachine has over hordes is the prowess of their casters over locks. If you are not abusing your casters to their fullest extent when playing against a hordes army then you are not playing against hordes correctly x.O; I mean you've played against or play mak2 differently than what I've seen. I've seen her as a ignore spell list be a stay death bot. Your solo no character point is important though
|
|