Way too much CID! :D
Jul 11, 2017 13:56:06 GMT
Stormsmith Dropout, hoarlukbumshaker, and 1 more like this
Post by Trollock on Jul 11, 2017 13:56:06 GMT
I read the CID rules when they came out and i was frankly quite overwhelmed. Testing out the new caster and theme and new models would have been a big project, but add on top of that the fact that they changed the Kriel Stone (affects basically every list you ever played), added a solo that EVERYONE can play in every theme that trivially brings upkeep hate and invalidates a whole type of unit (such as battle mages) means you need to look carefully at all your old lists and reevaluate them. Then you ALSO have the fact that the Sea King got back in line with the other Kings and the EBDT (who was in basically every list i played this year) got cheaper AND that they fixed Grim 1 among other things, it feels like i now have a whole new faction to play with. This is super awesome, but there is just no way that i will be able to test every thing out that i want to. Therefore i will write this list of thoughts, mainly for my self, to see what new things we have to try out!
Minions in themes
This is a HUGE change to the game and it was thrown in as an afterthought. This means that "vanilla" lists are now officially dead. I do not think that any top players will ever use a non-theme list in any faction ever again if this becomes reality. It is not the way i would have liked things to go, but we sort of have to live with it. It means that theme lists will be more fun and interesting to build for sure. Most minions are simply not worth bringing still since they will not benefit from FF buffs, and will (often, but not always) not contribute to free points, but it does allow you to bring small utility pieces like the Feralgeist if you have 2 points left, or WE&SJ if you want star crossed. In practice though, that new Eilish dude is WAY too powerful to pass up, so every list should just bring him basically. Ill talk more of him lately, but he is basically the only thing i do not like (HATE to be more accurate) about this CID.
Storm of the North (SotN)
The theme urges you to bring infantry and northkin models. The Hooch Hauler (HH) also counts toward free points, and that also encourages you to bring Northkin models (mostly infantry, but there are quite a few beasts too now). There are a lot of very different versions of units that qualify though, so you could see a whole lot of different builds. Longriders are still pretty bad imo, but you could bring those, or you could bring fast skirmishing units like Fire Eaters and Raiders. You have access to Champions who are still expensive enough to define a list they are included in. You have the possibility of bringing a LOT of ambushing units to surround the opponent.
It feels like there are a lot more ways to play SotN than there are ways of playing PoD. BoH has at leas a couple of variants, but they feel even more irrelevant now that we have another infantry theme.
The fact that Rök is allowed in theme with every caster made us all wonder if Doomy 2 would play this list. At a glance it feels only slightly better than playing without theme, but you COULD bring 20 points worth of units for sure and get a free solo like a Shaman that you might have brought in PoD. You lose out on maybe 8 free points then, and there are a lot of self sufficient unit options to chose from. The bears might be superb for him since they can force the opponent to stay in the meddle of the board to be eaten by your fast beasts. I am not convinced it is the way to go, but it is worth exploring for sure.
Madrak 1
Changing Guided hand to work as (presumably) intended does not bring him up to playable. If anything, the changes to Borka 2 means that he is now more obviously the worst caster in the faction and possibly in the game. There is a glint of light though. The HH is a great target for his feat since it can move up and shoot to oil things, then reform forward to shoot with the feat even deeper. Raiders seem incredible with him too, since they want to trigger Quick work, and Guided hand allows that, and an extra shot against oiled targets can be devastating. MK2 ppl will remember what Croaks did to heavies. Boosted POW 12s en masse is a thing, and the HH makes them RAT 6. The Northkin theme is probably the way to play Madrak now. Not sure if it is worth while, but it is worth checking out... once you are pored with all the other stuff...
Grim 1
He was apparently playable even without this buff, and with it, he is WAY stronger. He is a caster that brings as much infantry hate as you can want and giving him this type of buff is VERY beneficial for us. He pairs well with our old PoD style lists, and he supports most things well. SotN may be the way to play him, or Kriel Company (once released) or even PoD. He is a VERY strong caster now. Adding this buff to him just as a sidenote to a big CID is almost offensive, but ill take it!
Borka 1
The change to Mosh Pit is obviously nice, but i do think that it is mainly meant for us to play him in the tests. If he had gotten no love, i do not think there would be any games played with him during the short CID time. This small buff is more a way to say "dont forget that this guy exists!". I do not think that it really changes the power level of him. Being able to bring WE&SJ in theme is fun if you want to play the unhittable (and cheaper) champions, and cheaper Rök also helps him. He was playable before, and became more so. Nice, but not super interesting just now.
Borka 2
His survivability went up significantly (he basically has +2 ARM and +1 transfer since he got a discount on an animus). In theme, his beasts gets +1 to hit from the HH. His mount gets auto knock down (cant do it on a counter charge though) to trigger Trash, though the mount does not benefit from Defiant Rage as that increases STR. Snow Shroud is still not great, and since it now costs 2 per turn to use, you are sort of using up the discount from the Attuned Spirit.
EDIT: I was sort of wrong about the knock down on counter charge. You can not make your CHARGE attack with the mount, but you can still make impact attacks (they will not be boosted, but at MAT 8-9 you should be fine anyway. This is a HUGE diference, since it allows Borka to knock down models on your opponents turn.
He does not really support the Northkin models you want to take in the Northkin theme, but they support his things. They are also often self sufficient, so that he can play a smaller BG to take advantage of his feat and counter charge, but he can still have bears and pygs popping up on the side of the opponent and do work there and contest if needed. Borka wants to brawl in a tight clump in the middle of the field to get maximum use out of his feat and counter charge, and having ambushing units that are actually dangerous will help to force that. He seems WAY more fun and interesting now. If he is competitive is hard to say, but he seems viable at the very least and that is all i wanted.
Kolgrima
I for one am REALLY slow at adopting a new caster. I want to play lots of games with them and read lots of discussions before i can wrap my head around them, so bare with me. She has a feat that offers some control and then some accuracy boosting (though that happens the turn AFTER you feat). She can help you hit on a turn by turn basis, and doing an auto point of damage seems insane vs lots of the infantry that sees play now. Scatter Gunners or HWM will mulch through all those ARM 18+ dudes. The options available in SotN can also help with that, but not quite as well.
She has a cloud wall that could be 4 clouds wide if you have a runebearer and that is SUPER strong in trolls and Jarl has taught me. She can do it sort of every turn too. She can make your stuff charge further with Hunters Mark. She looks a LOT like Grim 1 at a glance. However, she also has Arcane Vortex which is VERY good, especially if you have a huge base, and she could stab her own guys to remove an upkeep that bothers you in a pinch.
She seems very playable at the very least and she brings several things to the table that we have not seen before. I think the feat is needlessly complex, but it offers something that is very unique in that it sort of gives you 2 feat turns. One where you push them back (a weak version of Krueger 2) and one that boosts your accuracy (a weak version of Sorcha 1). I cant decide if two weak feats adds up to one strong, but table time will show that for sure.
Over all, i am happy with her. I am not at all sure that SotN is the way to play her. PoD seems interesting too. These are very good things imo!
Minions in themes
This is a HUGE change to the game and it was thrown in as an afterthought. This means that "vanilla" lists are now officially dead. I do not think that any top players will ever use a non-theme list in any faction ever again if this becomes reality. It is not the way i would have liked things to go, but we sort of have to live with it. It means that theme lists will be more fun and interesting to build for sure. Most minions are simply not worth bringing still since they will not benefit from FF buffs, and will (often, but not always) not contribute to free points, but it does allow you to bring small utility pieces like the Feralgeist if you have 2 points left, or WE&SJ if you want star crossed. In practice though, that new Eilish dude is WAY too powerful to pass up, so every list should just bring him basically. Ill talk more of him lately, but he is basically the only thing i do not like (HATE to be more accurate) about this CID.
Storm of the North (SotN)
The theme urges you to bring infantry and northkin models. The Hooch Hauler (HH) also counts toward free points, and that also encourages you to bring Northkin models (mostly infantry, but there are quite a few beasts too now). There are a lot of very different versions of units that qualify though, so you could see a whole lot of different builds. Longriders are still pretty bad imo, but you could bring those, or you could bring fast skirmishing units like Fire Eaters and Raiders. You have access to Champions who are still expensive enough to define a list they are included in. You have the possibility of bringing a LOT of ambushing units to surround the opponent.
It feels like there are a lot more ways to play SotN than there are ways of playing PoD. BoH has at leas a couple of variants, but they feel even more irrelevant now that we have another infantry theme.
The fact that Rök is allowed in theme with every caster made us all wonder if Doomy 2 would play this list. At a glance it feels only slightly better than playing without theme, but you COULD bring 20 points worth of units for sure and get a free solo like a Shaman that you might have brought in PoD. You lose out on maybe 8 free points then, and there are a lot of self sufficient unit options to chose from. The bears might be superb for him since they can force the opponent to stay in the meddle of the board to be eaten by your fast beasts. I am not convinced it is the way to go, but it is worth exploring for sure.
Madrak 1
Changing Guided hand to work as (presumably) intended does not bring him up to playable. If anything, the changes to Borka 2 means that he is now more obviously the worst caster in the faction and possibly in the game. There is a glint of light though. The HH is a great target for his feat since it can move up and shoot to oil things, then reform forward to shoot with the feat even deeper. Raiders seem incredible with him too, since they want to trigger Quick work, and Guided hand allows that, and an extra shot against oiled targets can be devastating. MK2 ppl will remember what Croaks did to heavies. Boosted POW 12s en masse is a thing, and the HH makes them RAT 6. The Northkin theme is probably the way to play Madrak now. Not sure if it is worth while, but it is worth checking out... once you are pored with all the other stuff...
Grim 1
He was apparently playable even without this buff, and with it, he is WAY stronger. He is a caster that brings as much infantry hate as you can want and giving him this type of buff is VERY beneficial for us. He pairs well with our old PoD style lists, and he supports most things well. SotN may be the way to play him, or Kriel Company (once released) or even PoD. He is a VERY strong caster now. Adding this buff to him just as a sidenote to a big CID is almost offensive, but ill take it!
Borka 1
The change to Mosh Pit is obviously nice, but i do think that it is mainly meant for us to play him in the tests. If he had gotten no love, i do not think there would be any games played with him during the short CID time. This small buff is more a way to say "dont forget that this guy exists!". I do not think that it really changes the power level of him. Being able to bring WE&SJ in theme is fun if you want to play the unhittable (and cheaper) champions, and cheaper Rök also helps him. He was playable before, and became more so. Nice, but not super interesting just now.
Borka 2
His survivability went up significantly (he basically has +2 ARM and +1 transfer since he got a discount on an animus). In theme, his beasts gets +1 to hit from the HH. His mount gets auto knock down
EDIT: I was sort of wrong about the knock down on counter charge. You can not make your CHARGE attack with the mount, but you can still make impact attacks (they will not be boosted, but at MAT 8-9 you should be fine anyway. This is a HUGE diference, since it allows Borka to knock down models on your opponents turn.
He does not really support the Northkin models you want to take in the Northkin theme, but they support his things. They are also often self sufficient, so that he can play a smaller BG to take advantage of his feat and counter charge, but he can still have bears and pygs popping up on the side of the opponent and do work there and contest if needed. Borka wants to brawl in a tight clump in the middle of the field to get maximum use out of his feat and counter charge, and having ambushing units that are actually dangerous will help to force that. He seems WAY more fun and interesting now. If he is competitive is hard to say, but he seems viable at the very least and that is all i wanted.
Kolgrima
I for one am REALLY slow at adopting a new caster. I want to play lots of games with them and read lots of discussions before i can wrap my head around them, so bare with me. She has a feat that offers some control and then some accuracy boosting (though that happens the turn AFTER you feat). She can help you hit on a turn by turn basis, and doing an auto point of damage seems insane vs lots of the infantry that sees play now. Scatter Gunners or HWM will mulch through all those ARM 18+ dudes. The options available in SotN can also help with that, but not quite as well.
She has a cloud wall that could be 4 clouds wide if you have a runebearer and that is SUPER strong in trolls and Jarl has taught me. She can do it sort of every turn too. She can make your stuff charge further with Hunters Mark. She looks a LOT like Grim 1 at a glance. However, she also has Arcane Vortex which is VERY good, especially if you have a huge base, and she could stab her own guys to remove an upkeep that bothers you in a pinch.
She seems very playable at the very least and she brings several things to the table that we have not seen before. I think the feat is needlessly complex, but it offers something that is very unique in that it sort of gives you 2 feat turns. One where you push them back (a weak version of Krueger 2) and one that boosts your accuracy (a weak version of Sorcha 1). I cant decide if two weak feats adds up to one strong, but table time will show that for sure.
Over all, i am happy with her. I am not at all sure that SotN is the way to play her. PoD seems interesting too. These are very good things imo!