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Post by beardmonk on Jul 11, 2017 10:56:03 GMT
Iv not looked too much into this yet. Until rules come out of CID its all speculation and "fake rules".
However it feels more and more like if you want to play WM/H you need to play in theme otherwise you are putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. Themes were meant to allow you to play an interesting theme, with restrictions and benefits. On the face of it, it seems like PP are doing away with that. Probably in a effort to shift more product. You can take much more, the boundaries are loser.
Many of our long term players in my local meta have now quit due to "thememachine".
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 11, 2017 11:01:34 GMT
I quite like themes. As long as they are thematic and aren't just taking the good things and making them better.
A lot of these themes will need to change to free faction solos. Because I can shove free mercs in my winter guard Kommand list and that just isn't fair.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 11, 2017 16:22:47 GMT
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 11, 2017 16:25:30 GMT
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 11, 2017 17:20:59 GMT
I was right! They did (for testing purposes) change the themes so that only faction models count towards theme points, and only faction models can be free.
No free Wrong Eye and Snapjaw. No free Gastone. None of that. Good change.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 11, 2017 17:31:17 GMT
They really should have stated that from the start...
I still can't test much as Legion has squat when it comes to available minion solos. Infantry wise nothing is better than in faction for the points. Though Legion players outside of me will swear by the Vault. Which I don't doubt it's great. I'm just bratty when it comes to cohesive army aesthetics. Maybe I should make a dragon inspired sacral vault proxy... and now I immediately have an idea for it too >.<
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 11, 2017 17:33:19 GMT
I was right! They did (for testing purposes) change the themes so that only faction models count towards theme points, and only faction models can be free. No free Wrong Eye and Snapjaw. No free Gastone. None of that. Good change. Doesn't change much for what I was looking at. I can take Nyss Hunters and Eiryss1 in Defenders of Ios with Ossyan and have 3 free solos: Dragoon ( 8 pts), Eiryss1 ( 7 points), Sylss ( 4 points) for 19 free points in a strong list. Now granted I already have a list made for this in theme how it currently stands with 17 free points but it has 1 unit that is strictly melee( ellowuyr swordsmen) and I don't have the luxury of Eiryss1 crazy assassination threat.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 11, 2017 17:48:07 GMT
They really should have stated that from the start... I still can't test much as Legion has squat when it comes to available minion solos. Infantry wise nothing is better than in faction for the points. Though Legion players outside of me will swear by the Vault. Which I don't doubt it's great. I'm just bratty when it comes to cohesive army aesthetics. Maybe I should make a dragon inspired sacral vault proxy... and now I immediately have an idea for it too >.< There was a really cool conversion of a Sacral Vault and Throne (the two were named the Sacral Throne and the Vault of Everblight). Alas, the page was destroyed when the old forums got wiped.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 11, 2017 17:49:51 GMT
I was right! They did (for testing purposes) change the themes so that only faction models count towards theme points, and only faction models can be free. No free Wrong Eye and Snapjaw. No free Gastone. None of that. Good change. Doesn't change much for what I was looking at. I can take Nyss Hunters and Eiryss1 in Defenders of Ios with Ossyan and have 3 free solos: Dragoon ( 8 pts), Eiryss1 ( 7 points), Sylss ( 4 points) for 19 free points in a strong list. Now granted I already have a list made for this in theme how it currently stands with 17 free points but it has 1 unit that is strictly melee( ellowuyr swordsmen) and I don't have the luxury of Eiryss1 crazy assassination threat. Goodness gracious. Retribution being able to assassinate? Whatever will we do?
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 11, 2017 17:54:15 GMT
If you're a part of the CID and do not like this change oncomingstorm has just posted an articulate argument against it in a massive wall of text that is spot on from beginning to end. Head on over to the CID forums and punch that like button on his post so that the dev's can see that he is actually speaking for many of us.
The post is in the dev talk discussion going on right now.
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Post by Korianneder on Jul 11, 2017 17:55:57 GMT
They really should have stated that from the start... I still can't test much as Legion has squat when it comes to available minion solos. Infantry wise nothing is better than in faction for the points. Though Legion players outside of me will swear by the Vault. Which I don't doubt it's great. I'm just bratty when it comes to cohesive army aesthetics. Maybe I should make a dragon inspired sacral vault proxy... and now I immediately have an idea for it too >.< Meat thresher, sacral vault, gremlins swarm, feralgeist, ogrun bokur, Maximus, Rorsh, Wrongeye, gobber chef, bone grinders, brigands, swamp gobbers. I could see all of those in a competitive list because most of them were in competitive lists pre themes. On the other hand I want to run a stupid ravens of war list ambushers, raiders, and two units of blightblades all ambushing from the side of the board.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 11, 2017 18:09:09 GMT
They really should have stated that from the start... I still can't test much as Legion has squat when it comes to available minion solos. Infantry wise nothing is better than in faction for the points. Though Legion players outside of me will swear by the Vault. Which I don't doubt it's great. I'm just bratty when it comes to cohesive army aesthetics. Maybe I should make a dragon inspired sacral vault proxy... and now I immediately have an idea for it too >.< Meat thresher, sacral vault, gremlins swarm, feralgeist, ogrun bokur, Maximus, Rorsh, Wrongeye, gobber chef, bone grinders, brigands, swamp gobbers. I could see all of those in a competitive list because most of them were in competitive lists pre themes. On the other hand I want to run a stupid ravens of war list ambushers, raiders, and two units of blightblades all ambushing from the side of the board. You missed some if you were going for "all" but I get the point. What we don't get - Saxxon, Pendrake, Dahlia, Hutchuck, Alten, Brun, Lanyssa (duh), Orrin, Raluk, Efaarit Scouts, River raiders (though does that one even matter?), Cylena, Dannon and bull, Geygore, and Lynus+Edrea. Some of those are huge game changers. Yes the BEs are better now and they do have a niche to fill. The non character solos do have some use but not nearly as powerful as the characters. The units are passable. I'm not saying we can't find something in minions. But the powerhouses are denied to us. Saxxon making swordsmen pathfinder. Would you not like have that tool in the tool set? I could list my distaste for everything we do have access to in minions. I have tons of fun running them with Gators but few have any place in my Legion lists. I will use the Bokor, but that's not because he is great. It's because our in faction shield guard option is too expensive.
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Post by Korianneder on Jul 11, 2017 18:14:36 GMT
Meat thresher, sacral vault, gremlins swarm, feralgeist, ogrun bokur, Maximus, Rorsh, Wrongeye, gobber chef, bone grinders, brigands, swamp gobbers. I could see all of those in a competitive list because most of them were in competitive lists pre themes. On the other hand I want to run a stupid ravens of war list ambushers, raiders, and two units of blightblades all ambushing from the side of the board. You missed some if you were going for "all" but I get the point. What we don't get - Saxxon, Pendrake, Dahlia, Hutchuck, Alten, Brun, Lanyssa (duh), Orrin, Raluk, Efaarit Scouts, River raiders (though does that one even matter?), Cylena, Dannon and bull, Geygore, and Lynus+Edrea. Some of those are huge game changers. Yes the BEs are better now and they do have a niche to fill. The non character solos do have some use but not nearly as powerful as the characters. The units are passable. I'm not saying we can't find something in minions. But the powerhouses are denied to us. Saxxon making swordsmen pathfinder. Would you not like have that tool in the tool set? I could list my distaste for everything we do have access to in minions. I have tons of fun running them with Gators but few have any place in my Legion lists. I will use the Bokor, but that's not because he is great. It's because our in faction shield guard option is too expensive. Yea and we don't get Rhupert or Gorman or Eiryss either, but I don't worry about what I don't have and instead look at what I do have.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 11, 2017 18:24:13 GMT
Yea and we don't get Rhupert or Gorman or Eiryss either, but I don't worry about what I don't have and instead look at what I do have. Ah optimism. I am pessimistic in just about every way. It's hard to circumvent. I do think this helps Circle and Trolls though. Again, things like Alten, Pendrake, Hutchuk, and Saxxon could change a lot of lists and match ups for them. Kahdor jacks trampling your fun? Here's a rust bomb! Forest in your way? Reconnaissance! Doomy feat healing off all your damage? Bang, one less to worry about! etc... Still hoping they open up options to more factions or, as I said before, make more options. In faction or not. Eilish is still stupid. I have plenty of good solo hunting tools. He will be eradicated maliciously.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Jul 11, 2017 18:58:29 GMT
Frankly i think this is a good thing. It addresses one of my main issues with themes really taking over the game : that is that themes indirectly contribute to stagnated list building by min-maxing effects. Secondly and actually related is that themes seem to be feast or famine: they are either terrific and the benchmark against what everything else is weighed within that faction, or garbage and almost never used. There's frighteningly little middle man, and the reason for that is the first point i brought up. Either the benefits are easily and egregiously fantastic, or they suck. Honestly, i've cooled on Mk3 a lot despite it being my favorite core rules deployment to date, but this might get me playing again. ... and Garrity is a terrible model imho in current form as of this date. oncomingstorm - just read your post in CID. While i don't 100% agree, it did make me think and its incredibly well written and reasoned. I especially like and agree with your point that it will not really do all that much to help under-represented theme lists while probably helping the best themes out more than is really needed. Excellent points.
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