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Post by Korianneder on Jun 27, 2017 12:42:11 GMT
I was considering Lyly2, but you're asking for trouble taking her without a Naga. One step further, not being able to take deathstalkers is a a massive sacrifice for Lyly2. She'd also love a Seraph in order to help with some of her FURY management (you don't need to boost in order to hit a flared target). What exactly are you getting for all of that? -und_ed I think Lylyth2 can do just fine without deathstalkers. You can still bring Raptors and Anyssa Ryvaal in theme. +1 to go first is a big deal for Lylthy2. She usually wants to get her models in position for her feat turn by going first. I usually only run a few beasts with her so when you add in 3 shepherds and soothing song it's usually fine. Also Azreal and Zuriel with unyielding can be nice late game pieces because they'll actually be hard to kill (for legion standards). Here's my first thought. Lylyth2 -Azreal -Zuriel -Bolt Thrower x 2 Annyssa Shepherd x3 Raptors Archers + Free UA Free Incubi
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jun 27, 2017 13:05:53 GMT
I'm not seeing the gain.
Compare to a non-theme Lylyth2 list (Oracles may be even stronger):
Lyly2 - Azrael - Ravagore - Naga - Bolty
Max raptors double forsaken double deathstalkers double shepaherds
The above list shoots marginally harder than the Cotd list, having a ravagore replace the second bolty and the naga's gun subbing in for Zuriel's spray. The deathstalkers do significantly more work than Anyssa, and the greater fury management really helps deal with all the fury you generate with Legion shooting. In addition, you have a Naga which fixes so many bad matchups that it immediately makes the list more appealing (entirety of Menoth, anyone with an ARM buff, Windwall casters...).
I'm just not seeing the benefit.
-und_ed
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 27, 2017 13:29:22 GMT
Zuriel is much harder to remove from the table then a naga is and the bolt thrower is safer then the ravagore because of thunderbolt. Deathstalkers do more work against single wound infantry. Anyssa does more work against multi wound infantry and beasts while being further back with repo 5. The archers can help with the single wound infantry with cra especially qith the extra shot from the feat or the porter.
The only thing you're really missing out on is a naga which may be a deal breaker but I'd rather try it out then instantly dismiss it. Menoth isn't popular in my area and the lists I see in tournament reports are having more and more infantry which can be shot with non magic guns outside of Vindictus. Lylyth2 herself still has three magical attacks on feat turn to get around wind wall. I think Lylyth3 is the only wind wall caster who bunches uo her whole army around her.
On the tradeoff you're getting a bonus to going first, which is really important for Lylyth. You're getting two heavies who with unyielding can hold an area better than most models in the faction. And you're getting 11 free points.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jun 27, 2017 21:13:21 GMT
I'm going to have to play around with some cotd lists again. Outside of the Twins and Kryssa, which warlocks take best advantage of infantry AND Azrael/Zuriel? Currently I'm leaning toward Thags1 with Draconic Blessing and Fog of War as well as Fyanna2 for Fury and Iron Flesh. Vayl1, Abby2, Thags2, Fyanna2. Though I wouldn't csll it optimal. Neutralyze idea seems really solid.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 27, 2017 21:53:37 GMT
Vayl1, Abby2, Thags2, Fyanna2. Though I wouldn't csll it optimal. Neutralyze idea seems really solid. Am I missing something because, what is Thags2, and more importantly, Abby2 doing for infantry? We don't really have a unit worth putting Dragon's Blood on and pretty much everything Abby2 does is for her battlegroup. CotD is at the very least a combined arms, if not completely, an infantry based theme.
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Post by neutralyze on Jun 27, 2017 21:57:36 GMT
Outside of the Twins and Kryssa, which warlocks take best advantage of infantry AND Azrael/Zuriel? Currently I'm leaning toward Thags1 with Draconic Blessing and Fog of War as well as Fyanna2 for Fury and Iron Flesh. Vayl1, Abby2, Thags2, Fyanna2. Though I wouldn't csll it optimal. Neutralyze idea seems really solid. Remember that we don't have access to the naga in this theme. That means if pushes down how many matchups we can play against. Vayl1 likes Azrael and it makes me excited to be able to take him. Zuriel, is a good dark sentinel target against lighter armored targets thanks to precision strike. Fyanna2 works well with zuriel and mostly everything. Kryssa loves both zuriel and Azrael. Giving both cloak ash is powerful with repo 3 on Azrael and dodge for zuriel.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 27, 2017 21:58:50 GMT
Vayl1, Abby2, Thags2, Fyanna2. Though I wouldn't csll it optimal. Neutralyze idea seems really solid. Am I missing something because, what is Thags2, and more importantly, Abby2 doing for infantry? We don't really have a unit worth putting Dragon's Blood on and pretty much everything Abby2 does is for her battlegroup. CotD is at the very least a combined arms, if not completely, an infantry based theme. Is it? You get free points for warbeasts. Your nephilim warbeasts gain unyielding. And you get +1 to your starting roll. You can easily take 100 points of warbeasts and get a free succubus, two warlords, and a shepherd. The benefits of it over Oracles is now you can include Azrael and Zuriel as well.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 27, 2017 22:44:52 GMT
KoriannederAssuming you're referring to Thags2 I came up with the following: Thags2 Typhon Azrael Zuriel Protector 3x Soldiers 4x Free Solos What do you plan on doing with a list like this? A pair of Soldiers should be able to kill a heavy or jam it at DEF/ARM 13/18 which isn't shabby, to say nothing about the 3 character heavies. However, trading against jack spam is still difficult due to the difference in point costs. I'm almost tempted to say that Abby1 or Saeryn might be better due to their ability to cheat trades with Blight Burst/Bringer. Also how do plan to deliver the Warlords? They potential damage output paints a bullseye on them and you don't have a unit to screen them. P.S. as an aside, would any one look at Saeryn if she had Blight Burst instead of Blight Bringer? It'd let her cover two heavies from most non-shooting, non-infantry attacks compared to her current spells. It might give us enough leverage on attrition, especially when combined with the Angelius/Neraph flying circus.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 27, 2017 22:53:24 GMT
My first thought is
Thags2 Succubus (free) Azrael Zuriel Typhon Bolt Thrower x2 Spell Martyr x3 Shepherd x3 Warlord x2 (free) Blackfrost Shard
This list is kind of like how I play Abby2. It's a gunline that can still do pretty well in melee with manifest destiny. You can also have the beasts shoot some stuff, hopefully with kiss up, and then use the feat to back up kind of like Vayl1's feat. It's also a potent assassination with scourge and guns. I don't plan on delivering the warlords. They can either spend their attacks on free solos in which case that's less attacks going into the beasts. Or they can ignore them and I get to charge them in. I'm fine either way.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Jun 27, 2017 23:29:47 GMT
The biggest problems I come up against in CotD is no Naga and no Seraph - our faction is balanced around these pieces, and there is no substitution for them anywhere (at this point).
For me, that means you want to run someone who can: 1.a. either rely on infantry damage to crack ARM/boxes or 1.b. can boost damage enough across the field to accept the loss of Wraithbane, and is 2.a. either running a bunch of infantry that can't be slipstreamed or 2.b. being a bricky or shooty list that doesn't miss slipstream. Unfortunately, we can't run our current huge bases in the theme, or that would solve some of the slipstream problem through list design options.
1.a. Infantry damage is acceptable for anyone who can deliver Swordsmen (Fyanna?, Rhyas, Twins, Vayl2) or boost damage on Raptors (Bethayne, Kallus1, Kallus2, Kryssa, Lylyth1, Thagrosh1, Vayl1)
1.b. Boosting battlegroup damage is not a new theme for Legion (Absylonia2, Kryssa, Thagrosh2, Vayl1)
2.a. Running infantry-heavy has a lot of options, although focusing on Raptors and Swordsmen seems probably the most appropriate unless you're dedicating yourself to BFS and infantry-buffing (probably not Absylonia1, Absylonia2, Saeryn, Thagrosh2)
2.b. Running a brick (Thagrosh1) or a shooting list (Absylonia2?, Lylyth2, Lylyth3) that doesn't mind losing slipstream AND wraithbane is more limited
With all that said, warlocks who meet 1.a. or 1.b., AND 2.a. or 2.b. include: Bethayne, Fyanna, Kallus1, Kallus2, Kryssa, Lylyth1, Rhyas, Twins, Thagrosh1, Vayl1, Vayl2, with only Thagrosh1 being likely to run something that's not at least kind of infantry spammy because of the loss of Slipstream being vital to others' agendas, imo (Bethayne and Kryssa might be able to do it, but they're going to be heavily dependent on their feat getting work done). And even then, playing casters like Fyanna, Lylyth1, Rhyas, Twins, Vayl1, and Vayl2 without slipstream feels like you're really disrupting their preferred list design, leaving Bethayne, Kallus1, Kallus2, Kryssa, and Thagrosh1 as probably the least disrupted thru CotD. Honorable mentions: Thagrosh2 can put his ARM buff on Azrael or Zuriel and maybe get a more durable heavy out of it, but I really don't like him without Slipstream; Saeryn1 could technically run a brick for one turn, but it feels a bit flimsy - maybe you could use it to deliver beasts into melee.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 27, 2017 23:51:56 GMT
I don't really think you can call 2x Bolt Throwers and Azrael a gunline. Don't get me wrong, the melee potential of the characters is nice, and it's the only way to get them in a theme. I just don't think Bolt Throwers are efficient shooters, especially in CotD without access to forsaken.
Maybe shift the focus away from the shooting. Perhaps throw in Legionnaires for an ARM19 screen under Dragon's Blood, they should be able to survive a turn or two against basic shooting. Something like:
Thags2 Typhon, Azrael, Zuriel, Soldier, Harrier Legionnaires 2x Warlords, Succubus
I tried to get the 75pts of beasts to grab an extra solo, but I'm unsure about taking Thagrosh without a Protector.
As an aside, do Typhon and Zuriel project enough infantry-hate with they sprays to not take things like Deathstalkers for the purpose of clearing screening units? I will admit that if those two are clearing the screen(s), then you're left with just Thagrosh and/or Azrael to fight the heavies/caster.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 28, 2017 0:07:01 GMT
I don't really think you can call 2x Bolt Throwers and Azrael a gunline. Don't get me wrong, the melee potential of the characters is nice, and it's the only way to get them in a theme. I just don't think Bolt Throwers are efficient shooters, especially in CotD without access to forsaken. Maybe shift the focus away from the shooting. Perhaps throw in Legionnaires for an ARM19 screen under Dragon's Blood, they should be able to survive a turn or two against basic shooting. Something like: Thags2 Typhon, Azrael, Zuriel, Soldier, Harrier Legionnaires 2x Warlords, Succubus I tried to get the 75pts of beasts to grab an extra solo, but I'm unsure about taking Thagrosh without a Protector. As an aside, do Typhon and Zuriel project enough infantry-hate with they sprays to not take things like Deathstalkers for the purpose of clearing screening units? I will admit that if those two are clearing the screen(s), then you're left with just Thagrosh and/or Azrael to fight the heavies/caster. Zuriel has a spray 8 and Typhon has 3 spray 8's. With the feat they can back up to be 14 inches from whatever they sprayed. They certainly contribute to a gunline and they can certainly deal with whatever screening units there are. You also have Thags2 himself with a spray 8. I wouldn't send Azrael into melee. I'd have him shoot something and back up. So I'd be trying to get two alphas, one with ranged attacks, supported with scourge to save some fury by not needing to boost, then back up out of their melee threat range, then next turn you cast manifest destiny and charge in for the second alpha. While this is happening I threaten assassination from a channeled scourge. Fury management after feat turn could be tricky. I'd have to play the list to try it out.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Jun 28, 2017 0:31:42 GMT
I was experimenting with a few cotd lists and fir the hybrid infantry/ beasts list my normal setup was x2 soldiers x2 bolt throwers and a protector for 50 points and 2 free solos. Now it's azrael zuriel bolt thrower for the same points. I'm looking at twins, kallus2, fyanna2. Though I'm more excited for cotd beast heavy under abby2 or vayl1. Maybe thagrosh2 as well.
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Post by DanX on Jun 28, 2017 12:11:40 GMT
50 points of Beasts with Azurel and Zuriel with casters that will love them sounds pretty great. Though the Lights ones have shown to be really strong too with Unyielding. Definitely worth fielding some.
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Post by yourmumrang on Jun 28, 2017 16:23:32 GMT
I have been wanting to run 20 Swordsmen for ages so I will be testing the following....
Thags1 CoD Succubus Azrael Typhon Zuriel Blighted Nyss Warlord Shepherd x 2 Spell Martyr Blighted Nyss Swordsmen x2 (M) Spawning Vessel (M)
I worry about lack of Pathfinder so I think the versions I have seen with Raptors may be better but lets see how this goes...
Of course the option of double Raptors is tempting too...
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