skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Jun 24, 2017 22:15:40 GMT
So I've gotten a bit antsy about when all the rules/models that have been flowing through CID will actually transfer to the real game. I haven't heard anything from PP about it but I assume after Lock n' Load. Has anyone heard differently or has another idea about when? I'm curious to see what various models actually sort out as.
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Post by skittles on Jun 24, 2017 22:52:35 GMT
Battle engine and cryx changes have been said by multiple PPS to drop about a month after the end of their cycle. Also, war room just updated (at least on iOS) to support expanded battle engine grids. Also Pagani keeps saying "soon(tm)".
Based on this, I'm expecting battle engines, cryx, and maybe some of the cygnar changes to drop in the next week or so.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 24, 2017 22:55:16 GMT
We know Grymkin are to be released at Lock and Load. Other than that, it's kind of up in the air.
I assume erratas for old models (banes, battle engines) will come at a faster rate than new releases (Grymkin, trenchers). But we don't know how long such models have to go back to internal testing for.
This does call up some interesting questions about which model rules people should use.
For instance, I can still play Laddermore and Storm Lances with the old rules. In fact, I am technically supposed to now that the CID cycle has ended. But in most people's minds they are already officially nerfed.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 24, 2017 23:06:26 GMT
We know Grymkin are to be released at Lock and Load. Other than that, it's kind of up in the air. I assume erratas for old models (banes, battle engines) will come at a faster rate than new releases (Grymkin, trenchers). But we don't know how long such models have to go back to internal testing for. This does call up some interesting questions about which model rules people should use. For instance, I can still play Laddermore and Storm Lances with the old rules. In fact, I am technically supposed to now that the CID cycle has ended. But in most people's minds they are already officially nerfed. Meh, nothing's final until it's final. For all we know, they've decided to revert all of the changes and buff lances into the stratosphere on top of that (I exaggerate, but...) I think it's appropriate to play with the old rules until the new ones drop - we don't know exactly what the final rules will look like, so practicing with CID rules out of cycle could end up being a waste of time. I will note that this could change, depending on how internal testing ends up working. If there's a very strong correlation between the state of a model at the end of CID and when it's released, maybe then we start thinking about playing CID rules in the intervening month. However, if it's like PP's past playtesting experiences, there's likely to be at least a few curveballs that make us go 'WTF, why?!' when we see the final release.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Jun 25, 2017 6:37:55 GMT
I'm just going to point out that the latest CID round was waaayyyyy to fast to actually take in data, make decisions based upon feedback and move forward. Almost certainly, the various test states were determined beforehand and the different configurations would be separated and data correlated afterward.
I wonder if this CID was almost as much about testing the limits/design of the CID process as much as anything else. To see if models needed that 4-6 week span, or if you could knock it out in 2.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 25, 2017 7:56:51 GMT
For instance, I can still play Laddermore and Storm Lances with the old rules. In fact, I am technically supposed to now that the CID cycle has ended. But in most people's minds they are already officially nerfed. Outside test games you were supposed to play them with the old rules even during CID. That doesn't change until there's an official release.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 25, 2017 9:11:40 GMT
I'm just going to point out that the latest CID round was waaayyyyy to fast to actually take in data, make decisions based upon feedback and move forward. Almost certainly, the various test states were determined beforehand and the different configurations would be separated and data correlated afterward. I wonder if this CID was almost as much about testing the limits/design of the CID process as much as anything else. To see if models needed that 4-6 week span, or if you could knock it out in 2. Luckily we didn't need to make decisions, just provide feedback. I felt the time could have been extra, but not much more. 2 weeks is good because think on how many cids we will need to hit for each faction.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 25, 2017 12:51:39 GMT
I think 2 weeks would have been enough for testing gravediggers. But bringing in Storm Lances, Laddermore, the Hunter, and Kraye made everything a bit more challenging. I really appreciate the changes to those models, and the last minute change to the minuteman, but some models went through the whole cycle without any attention.
PP is definitely testing the boundaries of the CID process. We'll see how things go with Northkin.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 25, 2017 14:14:32 GMT
I think 2 weeks would have been enough for testing gravediggers. But bringing in Storm Lances, Laddermore, the Hunter, and Kraye made everything a bit more challenging. I really appreciate the changes to those models, and the last minute change to the minuteman, but some models went through the whole cycle without any attention. PP is definitely testing the boundaries of the CID process. We'll see how things go with Northkin. I really look at CID as a way of PP to gauge a direction they need to go with their final testing. "Here is the concept and here is how we translated it into rules, "is it weak? Is it strong? Is it fun? Does it work?: Slightly more agency than a rubber stamp, slightly less than a designer. From this, PP got pretty much all the info they needed. Long Gunners are not considered an option, Siege didn't feel interesting, etc etc. Most of the Trencher stuff was pretty damn close to perfect at the start and so they felt they could sneak in other options. 2 Weeks was plenty for that.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 25, 2017 15:21:55 GMT
I think 2 weeks would have been enough for testing gravediggers. But bringing in Storm Lances, Laddermore, the Hunter, and Kraye made everything a bit more challenging. I really appreciate the changes to those models, and the last minute change to the minuteman, but some models went through the whole cycle without any attention. PP is definitely testing the boundaries of the CID process. We'll see how things go with Northkin. I really look at CID as a way of PP to gauge a direction they need to go with their final testing. "Here is the concept and here is how we translated it into rules, "is it weak? Is it strong? Is it fun? Does it work?: Slightly more agency than a rubber stamp, slightly less than a designer. From this, PP got pretty much all the info they needed. Long Gunners are not considered an option, Siege didn't feel interesting, etc etc. Most of the Trencher stuff was pretty damn close to perfect at the start and so they felt they could sneak in other options. 2 Weeks was plenty for that. I may acquire similar confidence depending on how the rules are when released. If long gunners, trencher mechanics, or the cannon recieve changes, then I'll agree that 2 weeks is plenty. We'll see.
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Post by Morganstern on Jun 25, 2017 22:25:30 GMT
We already know that the rules will change from the final CID week. Just look at what we have been told about SR2017. At least 4 things have been changed, some of which was based on the feedback from the last week of testing.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jun 26, 2017 6:36:44 GMT
For instance, I can still play Laddermore and Storm Lances with the old rules. In fact, I am technically supposed to now that the CID cycle has ended. But in most people's minds they are already officially nerfed. As others have said, this is not how you're supposed to approach the CID rules. The CID rules have nothing to do with the official game, really - when you play with them, you are not playing WM/H, you are playing an alternate "testing universe" WM/H. Playtesting a game is not the same as playing that game in its official version. Generally it doesn't matter - but try and use CID test rules in a sanctioned tournament of any kind and you are in trouble.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 26, 2017 11:00:02 GMT
For instance, I can still play Laddermore and Storm Lances with the old rules. In fact, I am technically supposed to now that the CID cycle has ended. But in most people's minds they are already officially nerfed. As others have said, this is not how you're supposed to approach the CID rules. The CID rules have nothing to do with the official game, really - when you play with them, you are not playing WM/H, you are playing an alternate "testing universe" WM/H. Playtesting a game is not the same as playing that game in its official version. Generally it doesn't matter - but try and use CID test rules in a sanctioned tournament of any kind and you are in trouble. Guys, I know that. But people are using SR17 even though it hasn't dropped yet. And Seige2 or Grymkin would have been better examples. Things that aren't out, but people might want to practice with.
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Post by dicebedamned on Jun 26, 2017 12:40:41 GMT
In a game where a player is rewarded for having a good understanding of his/her opponent's faction and specifically the models they have put on the table, I find myself not playing anything that has had the CID treatment between the testing phase and the 'official release'.
Even were I to mention to my opponent, 'I am using the CID version', it is unfair for my opponent to have access to another factions CID stuff, especially where it changes multiple times over a CID period. I would hate to win a game because my opponent got confused about what version of a model he/she was playing against, and so I end up not playing it at all to avoid the confusion.
I personally think the amount of time between the end of the CID and the 'official' release is far to long. If there is that much internal tweaking going on post CID, then is the CID really doing what it is designed to do?
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Jun 27, 2017 13:53:16 GMT
Looks like the CID battle engine rules dropped today or last night.
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