kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jun 30, 2017 7:09:38 GMT
I would say Khador at the moment is fine. Contrarily to mk2 it wins games and tournaments. Of course we won also in mk2 at iron gauntlet but took certainly more skill and let's say this is the khador I want to play.
The behemoth argument is a bit shacky. You can achieve what a behemoth does with 2 destroyers and one focus more. Getting in the deal more hitboxes, more models and a bit less hand to hand capabilities, but to be honest big b has a such big target on his head that make him survive until he is in combat is quite difficult.
Overall I'm happy about khador, even if karchev nerf was a sad day for me. Butcher 3 is still ridiculously strong. Rocketeers after Joe nerf aren't so scary anymore. I mean they are scary but not as before, when they would snipe off a warcaster from the table.
There are some casters and models in need of some adjustments but I can understand why khador is at the bottom of the list. It's the most balanced army right now, lacking completely broken pieces and with the majority of his pieces playable.
There are a bunch of strong pieces but you need to make choices. Both vlad, butchers, sorscha 1, irusk, harkevich, karchev, strakhov, etc, are all excellent choices. There is variety and you can build several competitive lists, while cygnar really need to get away from Haley 2 and all shooting boredom lists.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jun 30, 2017 10:28:00 GMT
Yeah, I'm not sure either. Hark seems pretty baller.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 30, 2017 11:17:18 GMT
Well, I am not a Khador gamer so my thoughts can be conflict with your real experience.... But it seems that they are not so good.
Maybe, they are not that fragile despite ARM 16. With 8 damage box, they can withstand typical POW 10 to 11 rifle shots well. POW 11 military rifle is danger to face, though, for they will cause about 2.277 damage on a hit even if they don't make CRA. About 4 damage with 2 men CRA. About four Trencher Infantry/Steelhead Riflemen/Idrian Skirmisher(without Prey) troopers are required to kill a Bombardier. But... is it acceptable? I am not sure about that because their threat range is quite short.
I think that the most problem of them seems the range, include threat range. They have the damage box so their SPD 4 seems acceptable, but what about RNG 10? It seems that they are intended to be the support fire division of Man-o-War force, but with RNG 10? I don't think that it would be enough range for a heavy cannon larger than a human can hold, and in the game they are supposed to be stick behind of a Man-o-War Shocktrooper's Shield Wall of warjacks, so the enemy should be far away than just 10". If a unit with military rifle are shoot at Man-o-War Shocktrooper units in front of them, after then can Bombardiers shoot back at them? if they are B2B with Shocktroopers then they may do it, but it seems complicated a bit.
So, I think that they need to increase the RNG of their ranged weapon. Maybe RNG 14 seems enough. Then they can threaten the enemy, even with RAT 5 AOE 3 allows them to kill an enemy trooper per a shot. The longer range lets them to use Arcing Fire more reliably. RNG 14 helps them to aim if they really need this as well. For a faction that lacks Snipe, I don't think that RNG 14 is broken.
Maybe, their melee prowess seems fine. Even Shocktroopers have P+S 14 on their melee weapons, so P+S 13 seems fine. Assault increases their overall charge damage, though.
...In short, give them RNG 14 while keep their points can fix them well I think, but what do you think about that? And are they also requires Assault as well? I think that also adding Assault seems totally fine, because they only have SPD 4, and Assault prevents them to use CRA so they are not able to crack the enemy heavy warjacks seriously.
And for ROF 2... I think that it is not that bad, if their POW is reduced by 12(and make them RNG 14). After all they are the elite unit that are expect to be outnumbered, so give them ROF 2 is not so strange. Else give them a shot with RNG 14 and an another shot with RNG 10 seems not so bad, though. Then they can grind the enemy close to them.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 12:03:21 GMT
He's supposed to help ranged jacks but he's just used to spam efficient jacks. Mobility is a bad spell, I'd rather have something like Tow. My proposed fix was Mobility is replaced by Guided Fire.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 12:21:00 GMT
Harkevitch is supposed to be a "Tank" caster, so I get the "All Terrain" aspect but I can disagree with the "Tanks Go super fast guys!" aspect...But apparently PP doesn't. PP thinks tanks want to melee people.
So if Harkevitch gets a redesign, he would probably loose Broadsides, and gain a Battlegroup wide slam buffer or something.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 12:30:57 GMT
If we really want All-Terrain, either replace his Field Marshal with Pathfinder (less than ideal) or give him some kind of 1 cost battlegroup pathfinder. I don't care, I just want Guided Fire so the Broadsides actually works!
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 12:43:45 GMT
I don't care, I just want Guided Fire so the Broadsides actually works! Guided Fire on top of Broadsides? Honestly a ranged Khadoran Caster first has to have the Ranged jacks be better. At the moment only the Destroyer is passable.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jun 30, 2017 12:44:49 GMT
*chuckles* Oh you guys.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 12:47:33 GMT
Destroyers are fine. But I want for you to look at the ubiquity of melee support spells, and compare them to our ranged support spells. That's the problem. Until that changes, we still get the same stupid "spam the most efficient melee jack".
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Post by The Snark Knight on Jun 30, 2017 12:49:06 GMT
If we really want All-Terrain, either replace his Field Marshal with Pathfinder (less than ideal) or give him some kind of 1 cost battlegroup pathfinder. I don't care, I just want Guided Fire so the Broadsides actually works! I dunno. I don't think he'd get used if he had to spend all of his focus every turn to be effective. Also I feel like he'd get murdered with Tow, but I could be wrong there.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 12:51:56 GMT
He can be effective. 18" threat range is a lot, even without mobility. I wouldn't suggest a change if I didn't test it.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 13:57:37 GMT
I'm not saying the threat range isn't impressive, its just its still pretty meh. And Im not saying it has to be uber damage or the like, just do something worthwhile to not just be dumped away. Like a Range Based Harkevitch still can't play into menoth for instance.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 30, 2017 14:25:51 GMT
I'm not saying the threat range isn't impressive, its just its still pretty meh. And Im not saying it has to be uber damage or the like, just do something worthwhile to not just be dumped away. Like a Range Based Harkevitch still can't play into menoth for instance. Protectorate is always a problem for the most anti armor guns, not just for Destroyers and Behemoth. It is just a bad matchup. You need the melee weapons, or Magical anti armor guns in order to deal with them. I remember that that only Cygnar and Retribution are able to deal with them in range well, and even for them they are need to be prepared to against such threat(Retribution has more innate ranged weapon with Damage Type: Magical, though, but Cygnar has more efficient anti armor ranged solutions so much better at non-Passage/non-Wind Wall matchupts). So, in the tournament you better ready your melee concentrated list to deal with them instead. Still, it is true that anti armor ranged guns of Khador are not that good. Even against DEF 12 RAT 4 has some chance to be miss, so you need to put a focus point to boost the attack roll too. As the experience of MKII Kara Sloan, Broadside without Hot-Shot makes not much a damage because it doesn't allows the warjacks to boost the damage roll. If Harkevich has so many warjacks with a gun then it makes some damage consider it is a spell rather than a feat, but as you know Khador lacks cheaper warjacks with capable anti armor gun(although only Cygnar can afford it). But, because the combination of Broadside and Hot-Shot is a trait of Bartolo Montador, it is unlikely that Harkevich also get Hot-Shot as well. So, it seems that changing Broadside for Guided Fire seems not so bad. Although it sucks up his focus greatly. Well, I think that it is already out of the discussion, but what does Decimator do in the real games? I think that its gun seems not so bad consider ROF 2 and POW 15, although its SPD 4 and RNG 10 is a problem. But at least it can punching the enemy from the distance longer than your charge range. And anyone can tell that why Conquest's Main Guns only has ROF 1? It is silly that it lacks either ROF 2 or Reload[1]....
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Post by steamwitch on Jun 30, 2017 15:39:46 GMT
I would say Khador at the moment is fine. Contrarily to mk2 it wins games and tournaments. Of course we won also in mk2 at iron gauntlet but took certainly more skill and let's say this is the khador I want to play. The behemoth argument is a bit shacky. You can achieve what a behemoth does with 2 destroyers and one focus more. Getting in the deal more hitboxes, more models and a bit less hand to hand capabilities, but to be honest big b has a such big target on his head that make him survive until he is in combat is quite difficult. Overall I'm happy about khador, even if karchev nerf was a sad day for me. Butcher 3 is still ridiculously strong. Rocketeers after Joe nerf aren't so scary anymore. I mean they are scary but not as before, when they would snipe off a warcaster from the table. There are some casters and models in need of some adjustments but I can understand why khador is at the bottom of the list. It's the most balanced army right now, lacking completely broken pieces and with the majority of his pieces playable. There are a bunch of strong pieces but you need to make choices. Both vlad, butchers, sorscha 1, irusk, harkevich, karchev, strakhov, etc, are all excellent choices. There is variety and you can build several competitive lists, while cygnar really need to get away from Haley 2 and all shooting boredom lists. I would have to dispute your claim about two destroyers being as effective as one behemoth. Mostly because of powerful shot the thing is that one focus is boosting all damage roles that includes blast damage rolls and it affects every individual model hit. Your points on how the human has a pretty big Target as well as having multiple models on the table however I will agree with. The thing about khador as we're not the shooting faction and I'm not sad that we can't shoot as well as the other guys. However I do play against a lot of protectorate. The artillerist models as well as lady Ion on Master Holt help spot solve those problems of not being able to shoot at range. In my opinion harkovich is a move shoot move type of caster and it suits him a little bit better that he's so mobile. It's just he has the same old problem he did in Mark 2 he doesn't really support infantry and he doesn't really support Jack's outside of this shooting trick he's got but we are getting more models to help toolbox us like the protectorate has. I'm not sure what they thought it was a good idea to take Fortune away from him.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 1, 2017 1:14:43 GMT
To be honest the competitive harkevich is to take a bunch of juggies and fling them on the oppo face as fast as possible. Broadside isn't widely used due to the lack of efficient ranges jacks. Khador rat is low enough for broadside to be mostly a waste of focus, unless you really need the extra shots to have more chances of clipping pesky Eyriss.
Now the problem is the shooting heavy lifting is still carried by infantry and especially rocketeers. Fun they can do something cool with bombardiers it would be cool.
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