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Post by 3xhume on Jun 22, 2017 4:46:38 GMT
Hello All, I know that It is well received that shocktroopers is the go to unit for man o war. But somehow I feel that bombadiers has potentials and not exploited well yet. On the contrary, I find demolition corps is a bit hopeless. I can't find a reason why demo corps should be taken over Marauders... Back to bombadiers in mk3. I have no experience with them at all. So I would like to pull some comments from players who does. Where as shocktroopers are there for staying power, Bombadiers is more of a ranged options. IMO on paper, they are not bad. POW 14 is respectable to put dents on jacks/beasts. AOE 3 blast may hit several infantries. Along with a good wound stat of 8. At least I see a reason why it might be better than destroyer for 5 pow 14 shots a turn. One more RAT also helps, while... Being infantries, a few khador spells help them like iron flesh, tactical supremacy, hand of fate, etc. I want to see them as hard to kill ranged unit so a bit hard to go down in effectiveness. 8 wounds with ironflesh (ARM18) is going to take a while or need some dedicated firepower to remove from the table. Pow 10 rifles is not going to do much to them. So what is your take of Man o War Bombadiers? and btw yes, I just need a bit more convincing to buy them.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 22, 2017 6:37:50 GMT
Bombardiers with HoF on them are not too bad. They have the strange option of doing a CRA, which increases the power of the blast damage as well. But it's difficult to see them in a competitive list when WG Rocketeers exist and do pretty much the same job for less points with better accuracy and range. I'v killed Haley2 with Bombardiers. But they were under Vlad2 feat with HoF on them Their problems are: Slow with pretty short range and kinda meh melee ability. Due to their speed and range they can almost never aim, so have trouble hitting stuff without a dice fixing buff. They are only at medium survivability, meaning they can tank a bunch of low power ranged attacks but will fold if pretty much anything charges them. In my opinion they need to have Assault to make up for their speed and range. They also need to get either RoF 2 or a rule that lets them fire twice if they CRA. RoF 2 would probably make them usable. (So they just need to double in effectiveness )
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Post by 3xhume on Jun 22, 2017 7:20:08 GMT
Rocketeers is limited to 3 models for a minimum of 12 points (Min WGI + 3 Rockets). Yes its hard to compare between these two when one wins in a landslide. Bombadiers has advantage of (1) much better staying power so harder to decrease in effectiveness, (2) able to stuck in melee if they have too.
So other than the vlads, do they have good synergies with other casters? Sorscha1 do pop out where she can freeze their targets and they can unload 5 Pow 14 shots. I think most caster/lock will die if we are able to pull this off.
I agree that assault would be great. this way, they can have 3" more threat range. But RoF 2..... I think it will be over the top. Doing 10 pow 14 shots at 16 points is unimaginable... That is a dead beast/jack per turn right there.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 22, 2017 8:26:09 GMT
Without buffs (which HoF is basically the only ranged one we have) those 10 shots would do around 10-15 damage to an Arm 20 jack... I'm pretty sure a 16 point unit being able to do 15 points of damage to a heavy per turn wouldn't break the game...
I think the only viable casters to use them with are the Vlads and perhaps Irusk2. FFE hot swapped between two min units and do 3 model CRAs with it could be pretty funny and Battle Lust makes pretty much anything good in melee.
The problem putting them with Sorscha is they only threat 14", while your jacks can threat out to 18" doing the same thing.
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Post by 3xhume on Jun 22, 2017 8:42:19 GMT
but.... you are using arm 20 jack (khador standard) to be the standard for calculation...
That is avg 20 damage to arm 19 jack, avg 30 damage to arm 18 jack, and so on to lighter jacks... It has become obnoxious when we add buffs such as hand of fate...
Believe me, its going to break the game.
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Post by MrHaystacks on Jun 22, 2017 10:43:07 GMT
When the Man o War book shows up, we will get to put them through CID ,ala Gravediggers going through at the moment. I would prefer to see their melee power change, not improve per say, I just hate Crit Shred. I would much prefer almost anything else (maybe crit amputation?). I would also love to see some specific shooting buffs in faction, give us back fortune, or something that improves to hit rolls/lowers Def.
So if we were to put Bombardiers in to LormaCID. With the Brief of: Man o War Bombardiers 10/16 for 3/5 models. UA is 4pts for single model. These guys are elite soldiers in Steam power armour. They will be Mat 7 Rat 5 Str 9 Def 10 Arm 16 Com 7 8 box's. ( the standard stats of all MoW's). They are to help provide anti infantry clearance with the amounts of AoEs they bring, but when focused on larger targets the grenades will still hurt. They are able to launch these with impunity. As there fellow MoW's are largely immune to the blasts. Each Launcher has a chainsaw slung underneath for when battle is eventually joined. They will receive a UA at some point, any rules that can be provided by the UA should be left of the model but noted alongside.
Current Rules. CRA, Repairable. Grenade Launcher Rng 10 RoF 1 Pow 14 AoE 3: Arcing Fire Chainblade Rng 1 P+S 13 Crit Shred (On a Crit hit, make additional attack against model hit)
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jun 22, 2017 11:18:42 GMT
I always liked them in Mark 2. I haven't used them as much in Mark 3, but I think that is something that will change. Especially with Vlad 2 and a mow theme.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 22, 2017 11:31:33 GMT
Depends on what they are supposed to be.
If their the "space marines" of mow assault is a good thing.
If they are more ranged fellows, either increased range, better rat or that thing that the mule has. Steam pressure.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 22, 2017 11:46:45 GMT
Not until something changes about them, no. Want to have shooting infantry - take wg, want to have a durable but less damaging shooting - take Destroyer or Fun Carriage.
As a joke you can try last standing them, that should be fun.
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Post by tapecrawler on Jun 22, 2017 12:23:15 GMT
I don't think ROF2 would break them. The trencher long gunners in CID have that already with range14, RAT8, POW12 (that's with them doing two man CRA's so it's the same number of shots). The trencher long gunners are squishy but have a longer range that can be extended another 4" with snipe. So they have an 18" threat without moving. The Bombadiers are more durable but have a total threat of 14". So if they went head to head, the trencher long gunners would get four shots each while under the current rules the bombardiers would get one AOE3 shot each. I think the bombardiers would be shot off of the table long before they got a chance to respond.
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Post by zerfius on Jun 22, 2017 12:40:00 GMT
I don't think ROF2 would break them. The trencher long gunners in CID have that already with range14, RAT8, POW12 (that's with them doing two man CRA's so it's the same number of shots). The trencher long gunners are squishy but have a longer range that can be extended another 4" with snipe. So they have an 18" threat without moving. The Bombadiers are more durable but have a total threat of 14". So if they went head to head, the trencher long gunners would get four shots each while under the current rules the bombardiers would get one AOE3 shot each. I think the bombardiers would be shot off of the table long before they got a chance to respond. You could always fire the grenades off and hope for favorable deviation to take out some of those squishy gunners. The Trenchers don't have that option. -Z
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Post by auraco on Jun 22, 2017 12:54:54 GMT
Yeah until they go through CID there are clearly better options out there. Arm 16 with 8 box is durable but definitively killable, especially with only def 10 where anything can hit them easily. At the moment their rat is too low for them to hit what they can damage reliable and their pow will barely do more than scratch the armor of what they can hit. I think giving them high explosive would be a good step in the right direction because at the moment they feel way too expansive for what they do.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 22, 2017 12:55:24 GMT
You could always fire the grenades off and hope for favorable deviation to take out some of those squishy gunners. The Trenchers don't have that option. -Z As a strategy that's incredibly unwieldy, time-consuming, and very very unlikely. Im not saying ROF 2 would be good or bad on them. Im just saying that "Deviate and hope to hit" is a bad strategy.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 22, 2017 13:58:26 GMT
I'v had a few thoughts about them over the months of not using them and what they need to be useable. Critical Shred needs to go, I'm not even going to go into why because it will just make me mad I don't think they need better melee. They should be more dedicated to shooting and any melee they have should be about getting them unjammed or something. So the main ideas that I'v been having for a while, without totally redesigning them would be to: - Increase RoF to 2 base line. - Make an additional attack when participating in a CRA. - Increase the size of the AoE by 1" per model participating in a CRA up to 5".
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Post by 3xhume on Jun 22, 2017 14:34:56 GMT
Make no mistake, im not defending bombadiers as i havent play with them yet. But i disagree with a few comments about general strategy.
1) pow 14 shooting will do respectable damage. Do not compare grenades to high pow melee weapons but to other ranged weapons. Not many guns are actually hit harder then pow 14. Very few pow 15 and 16 ranged weapons can be found in the game. Expecting bombadiers to do very high damage output is too much.
2) blast deviation is a valid strategy in my books. Seriously rather than hitting arm 22 galleon under bart with batten, I gladly take the deviation scatter high risk, high return. This happens in one of my game last week. Intentionally missing reinholdt only to roll well in deviation and range, suddenly dead reinholdt and aiyana. This is better than the very unlikely damaging the galleon. If i have to do it again, i will still gladly missing and scattering my templates if it have a chance to kill high impact solos. Even if it doesnt go as expected, you know its a bet and will not be dissapointed as you are not putting high hopes there.
Just my two cents.
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