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Post by khador247 on Jun 26, 2017 17:22:11 GMT
They are expensive and currently we don't get any free solos or UAs by taking them nor do we get any other benefits. I think they'll probably become a much more attractive option after we get our MOW theme force. SPD 7 (on feat turn) with 10 inch shot and arcing fire is pretty decent. Well keep in mind that Vlad2 adds +3 to RAT and SPD. Giving a threat of 17inches with arching fire at RAT 7. Hand of fate may be over kill but it's a multi angle threat with at least 4 models. V2 feat is for assassinating or clearing out large swaths of your opponents models IMO. Not too shabby considering that they will be jacked up for a turn as well. But cost effectiveness tilts out of your favor running 5 instead of 3 IMO. I like the Darkun too much as a V2 feat target. I know. I was the one arguing for them with Vlad2. I agree the feat is for either killing the caster or crippling enough key pieces that they will struggle to mount a solid counte attack. I won a tourney late in MKII with the Vlad2 MOW theme force and the Bombadiers were a major reason why. I have not played them yet in MKIII. I'm waiting for the new MOW theme.
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Post by steamwitch on Jun 26, 2017 22:30:27 GMT
Well keep in mind that Vlad2 adds +3 to RAT and SPD. Giving a threat of 17inches with arching fire at RAT 7. Hand of fate may be over kill but it's a multi angle threat with at least 4 models. V2 feat is for assassinating or clearing out large swaths of your opponents models IMO. Not too shabby considering that they will be jacked up for a turn as well. But cost effectiveness tilts out of your favor running 5 instead of 3 IMO. I like the Darkun too much as a V2 feat target. I know. I was the one arguing for them with Vlad2. I agree the feat is for either killing the caster or crippling enough key pieces that they will struggle to mount a solid counte attack. I won a tourney late in MKII with the Vlad2 MOW theme force and the Bombadiers were a major reason why. I have not played them yet in MKIII. I'm waiting for the new MOW theme. Ah my bad still learning how to read the forum here. Do you min or max them back in mk2? I could not bring myself to bring max.
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Post by 3xhume on Jun 27, 2017 2:43:52 GMT
khador247 : why are they usable in mk2 that the transition to mk3 says otherwise? Not much of a difference in rules or is it the theme list of vlad2 mk2? I cant remember mk2 vlad2 theme list
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 27, 2017 3:00:52 GMT
khador247 : why are they usable in mk2 that the transition to mk3 says otherwise? Not much of a difference in rules or is it the theme list of vlad2 mk2? I cant remember mk2 vlad2 theme list Steam and Steel, it was a No Quarter theme. It made MOW models cheaper, and gave units AD and jacks a speed boost.
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Post by khador247 on Jun 27, 2017 14:05:18 GMT
khador247 : why are they usable in mk2 that the transition to mk3 says otherwise? Not much of a difference in rules or is it the theme list of vlad2 mk2? I cant remember mk2 vlad2 theme list Steam and Steel, it was a No Quarter theme. It made MOW models cheaper, and gave units AD and jacks a speed boost. Yeah it was pretty cool. Vlad2 doesn't have any means of dealing with rough terrain so that is an issue with him piloting a MOW only list. It definitely had bad match ups. It was basically all about applying the feat, Hand of Fate and Transference to his MOW and the list having a good number of hit boxes and decent armor. The loss of the 2nd swing for Demo Corps is really significant in my opinion. I hope that eventually we can get that back. They weren't tearing up the charts when they had the 2nd swing so taking it away really feels unwarranted. I'm very interested in what the new MOW theme and new MOW troops will be like. The MOW are the troop type that interests me the most and are one of the main reasons I picked up Khador in the first place. I'm hoping that it'll be coming up soon in the CID process.
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Post by killermuppet on Jun 27, 2017 18:39:30 GMT
I think it would be cool to have a variable load out for the cannons. I could see shrapnel rounds that give AoE damage and a HEAT style round with Crit knockdown. You could even do a smoke round to give screening for MoWs to get closer to the enemy.
This could give the units a nice boost as they could 1st turn drop smoke. Move up and then drop shrapnel to soften up the target. Then after the Shocktroopers engage, switch to HEAT and hopefully knockdown tougher targets (ie Jacks, solos, and such). This might just be the thing to make them a little more useful rather then rewrite the whole unit.
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Post by steamwitch on Jun 28, 2017 3:51:55 GMT
Steam and Steel, it was a No Quarter theme. It made MOW models cheaper, and gave units AD and jacks a speed boost. Yeah it was pretty cool. Vlad2 doesn't have any means of dealing with rough terrain so that is an issue with him piloting a MOW only list. It definitely had bad match ups. It was basically all about applying the feat, Hand of Fate and Transference to his MOW and the list having a good number of hit boxes and decent armor. The loss of the 2nd swing for Demo Corps is really significant in my opinion. I hope that eventually we can get that back. They weren't tearing up the charts when they had the 2nd swing so taking it away really feels unwarranted. I'm very interested in what the new MOW theme and new MOW troops will be like. The MOW are the troop type that interests me the most and are one of the main reasons I picked up Khador in the first place. I'm hoping that it'll be coming up soon in the CID process. Wow...my heart. The demo were far from needing less depth...i could understand loading ice breaker. But back swing? Mabey PP is worried about mk1 demos makeing a comeback?
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Post by killermuppet on Jun 28, 2017 18:28:54 GMT
Well if I read the CID forums correctly the next group in CID is trolls so we will have at least another month or two wait. So Far Cryx and Cygnar got fixes done, maybe we will be up to bat soon, but I kinda have the feeling we will see Protectorate up before Khador. Maybe Privateer still see us at the "Red"-headed step child of Warmachine which means they get to us when they get to us. They have teased Man-O-War upgrades for months now, but still no joy in so much as a picture of these units. Think Privateer is just stringing us along hoping we don't leave until they get everyone else buffed up, then come back and say, opps here is your fix. These three models are going to get buffed everything is nerfed, have a nice day.
I hope I am wrong, but I just haven't felt any love from Privateer at all lately. Between the knee jerk nerfing of the Berserker chassis to the lackluster handling of the Gun Carrage, it seems Privateer will only look at Khador when they are fixing other factions first.
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Post by tesoe on Jun 28, 2017 23:57:13 GMT
I believe they said Convergence is after Trolls.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 29, 2017 0:35:40 GMT
Well if I read the CID forums correctly the next group in CID is trolls so we will have at least another month or two wait. So Far Cryx and Cygnar got fixes done, maybe we will be up to bat soon, but I kinda have the feeling we will see Protectorate up before Khador. Maybe Privateer still see us at the "Red"-headed step child of Warmachine which means they get to us when they get to us. They have teased Man-O-War upgrades for months now, but still no joy in so much as a picture of these units. Think Privateer is just stringing us along hoping we don't leave until they get everyone else buffed up, then come back and say, opps here is your fix. These three models are going to get buffed everything is nerfed, have a nice day. I hope I am wrong, but I just haven't felt any love from Privateer at all lately. Between the knee jerk nerfing of the Berserker chassis to the lackluster handling of the Gun Carrage, it seems Privateer will only look at Khador when they are fixing other factions first. Dude. I say this as a player of all factions*, you're worrying over nothing. I see PP as buffing things where they need to (Battle Engine CID) and nerfing the auto-includes (Storm Lances). Will your rockets probably be nerfed? Hell yeah, but if you were just spamming them to victory then you probably didn't deserve to in the first place. Will our melee jacks get a price hike? Hell yeah, but right alongside the Devestator chassis and our gunjacks getting buffed. You need to remember it will be a rare time when something is changed without player approval first. I like Khador, but I know we're not perfectly in balance. I want to see other factions come up to our level, and some things in Khador** toned down. *Except Trolls. God I hate Trolls. **Don't say the M-word around me. I will fight you.
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Post by khador247 on Jun 29, 2017 14:50:06 GMT
If I'm looking at Khador objectively (which is hard when I wear my red tinted glasses) there are really only two things that I see in our faction that I look at and go "Yeah that could be nerfed". 1. Powerful Shot on the Behemoth. 2 fully boosted POW 14 shots is really good especially when you factor in that everything under the 4 inch AOES gets boosted damage as well. Add in DMG buffs like Butcher's feat, S&P or HoF and it gets even better (or worse depending on your viewpoint). Not sure where they would go with this. Dropping the bombards below POW 14 doesn't really make sense because we already have a POW 14 bombard on the Destroyer. If they take away Powerful Shot completely then I really hope they give us something good in its place. The counter-argument to a nerf here is that Behemoth is very expensive. 2. Brutal Damage on WG Rockets. RNG 14 with a POW 12 shot is nice. Adding in an extra dice for DMG is super nice. Add in any of the DMG buffs mentioned above and things can get ugly. Then factor in that we have a theme force which practically begs us to spam these guys. People take min units of WG just to pack in more of these guys. If they do take away Brutal DMG I hope they give us something to take its place.
I don't want either of these to be nerfed of course but I don't want future releases to be limited because of how good these models are.
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Post by steamwitch on Jun 29, 2017 15:10:35 GMT
If big B gets powerful shot taken away I would like to see weapon platform or something like mk1&2. I was surprised to see it change at all. But I think it was because of the convoluted wording on sub cortex kind of like Karchev and his turbine. When i played her last week and reread what it could do now i was amazed How good she was from that change becUse of the free focus. But I'm honestly supprised to see FA/U as much as I am happy to see it. It throws alot of balance out of the window. Winter guard rockets are only so good because that core concept of FA limmits was forgotten. If the WG were FA/2 I don't think we would cry too much.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Jun 29, 2017 20:34:39 GMT
If big B gets powerful shot taken away I would like to see weapon platform or something like mk1&2. I was surprised to see it change at all. But I think it was because of the convoluted wording on sub cortex kind of like Karchev and his turbine. When i played her last week and reread what it could do now i was amazed How good she was from that change becUse of the free focus. But I'm honestly supprised to see FA/U as much as I am happy to see it. It throws alot of balance out of the window. Winter guard rockets are only so good because that core concept of FA limmits was forgotten. If the WG were FA/2 I don't think we would cry too much. Not saying it definitely won't happen, but PP has said basically any time they've been asked that changing FA definitely won't happen. I'm also curious as to what changes people would suggest to Behemoth that wouldn't be either roughly the same effectiveness as Powerful Shot or require a drastic points cost reduction.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 29, 2017 22:14:24 GMT
I have already made my proposals, but I'll repeat them.
Berserker: Either gets -1 PC or Aggressive back Mad Dog: He's fine. Rager -1 PC, +1 ARM, let him be a budget in-faction shield guard. Marauder: +1 PC, Siege Engine goes back to extra D6 vs Structures. Juggernaut: He's fine. Kodiak: He's fine. Destroyer: I have nothing to say about him until Harkevich is fixed. Devastator: Same cost, Rain of Death isn't an attack, but reduced to POW 16/POW 8. Drago: +1 DEF and loses Unstable, bond with Vlad goes to reroll attack and damage rolls. +1 PC. Decimator: -1 PC. Remove beat back for +2 RNG. Demolisher: Same cost, give him Assault. Ruin: He's fine. Grolar: -1 PC. Spriggan: Either -2 PC or MAT 7 and Grenades drop Targeting Flare for Flare. Torch: He's fine. Beast 09: Either replace Hyper-Aggressive with Aggressive or -2 PC. Behemoth: He's fine. Black Ivan: Bear Claw drops Crit Brutal for Brutal Damage or Dismantle.
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Post by steamwitch on Jun 30, 2017 6:10:54 GMT
I have already made my proposals, but I'll repeat them. Berserker: Either gets -1 PC or Aggressive back Mad Dog: He's fine. Rager -1 PC, +1 ARM, let him be a budget in-faction shield guard. Marauder: +1 PC, Siege Engine goes back to extra D6 vs Structures. Juggernaut: He's fine. Kodiak: He's fine. Destroyer: I have nothing to say about him until Harkevich is fixed. Devastator: Same cost, Rain of Death isn't an attack, but reduced to POW 16/POW 8. Drago: +1 DEF and loses Unstable, bond with Vlad goes to reroll attack and damage rolls. +1 PC. Decimator: -1 PC. Remove beat back for +2 RNG. Demolisher: Same cost, give him Assault. Ruin: He's fine. Grolar: -1 PC. Spriggan: Either -2 PC or MAT 7 and Grenades drop Targeting Flare for Flare. Torch: He's fine. Beast 09: Either replace Hyper-Aggressive with Aggressive or -2 PC. Behemoth: He's fine. Black Ivan: Bear Claw drops Crit Brutal for Brutal Damage or Dismantle. May I ask what is wrong with Hark?
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