faultie
Baby's First Wargame
Adrift with everyone else...
Posts: 6
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Post by faultie on Mar 9, 2017 18:04:56 GMT
www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htmBut to be fair, McDonalds and many others have been pushing a "coffee is hot, duh!" theme to that story to discourage lawsuits for nearly 2 decades now. It's almost mythic folklore at this point, delivering a societal message detached from the actual circumstances of the individuals that lived the events. Edit: I'm saying this as a (now) ex-PG. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck.
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 9, 2017 18:08:38 GMT
"Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup ..." I maintain my position.
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Post by jynxed on Mar 9, 2017 18:09:32 GMT
The compensation of points could be used to establish an employer-employee relationship as they were compensated but, the compensation doesn't meet federal wage standards. I was an event organizer when I worked for a LGS and this was a huge concern for us. All it takes is 1 disgruntled or crazy person and suddenly things go boom. Sucks. Every piece of bureaucratic nonsense comes from some idiot who sued someone over there own self inflicted idiocy. And the rest of us get punished for it. Like having to have "Hot coffee is hot" on hot coffee. "A New Mexico civil jury awarded $2.86 million to plaintiff Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman who suffered third-degree burns in her pelvic region when she accidentally spilled hot coffee in her lap after purchasing it from a McDonald's restaurant." What should have happened: Judge: Your serious? No you screwed up, it's your fault, deal wit it. Case dismissed. Granny: *unintelligible whining* Judge: buh-bye. Instead we now cater to entitled brats who deliberately slip up on ketchup packages to engage in what is the new get-rich-quick-scheme/scam that is suing. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572942/Teacher-awarded-230-000-compensation-slipping-ketchup-sachet-causing-severe-injury.html) The more people cater to it the worse life gets. I mean what's next suing God? www.nbcnews.com/id/20827350/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/nebraska-state-senator-sues-god/Oh. You should probably do a little more research into that lawsuit... It's literally nothing like you describe. There's a lot more to it than that.
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faultie
Baby's First Wargame
Adrift with everyone else...
Posts: 6
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Post by faultie on Mar 9, 2017 18:10:24 GMT
"Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup ..." I maintain my position. Ok.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 18:10:57 GMT
Yeah. Holding hot liquid between your legs only occurs with a deficit of mental acuity.
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Post by gunmageintraining on Mar 9, 2017 18:13:40 GMT
I can understand the 'fear' of a class action in light of the MTG suit. Granted, I feel that the circumstances around the MTG suit are far more likely to favor the 'judges'. They was far more direction and control over the volunteers than the average PG.
Regardless, killing off PG is a death knell for the company and hobby as a whole. Some will still support the game, but that's going to mean less and less as time progresses. Stores, in general, have rarely supported the hobby without significant and persistent outside interest. PGs were the ones who generated and focused that and allowed the stores to simply provide an environment and not worry about everything else (by and large). With PGs no longer taking that role, I imagine very few stores will step up, thus leading to community atrophy.
The forums is also a significant portent of the 'bad times' to come. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to say that at least the faction forums helped drive sales. People came for advice, discussion and community involvement and all of those help players gain new insights into the models to use, and simply interest in the game as a whole. Generalized and highly regimented forums won't have the same level of impact or involvement. There's simply to much game to have the same level of expert opinion and genuine dialogue.
All told, though it won't quite be instantaneous, PP is going to feel the sting of this on their bottom line, and probably by next quarter, they will either attempt to take steps to reverse their position, or are going to enter the death spiral that many of these hobby games seem to enter into. It's unfortunate, but I can't say I'm overly surprised... all things have a lifespan and it seems like Warmachine's is starting to run out (granted... not helped by PP throwing it out of a window...).
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Post by Permutation Servitor on Mar 9, 2017 18:13:52 GMT
So, Ed Bourelle left PP recently (PwMJ ep 143). Does anyone know if there's any relationship between that and the recent changes?
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 9, 2017 18:15:16 GMT
The compensation of points could be used to establish an employer-employee relationship as they were compensated but, the compensation doesn't meet federal wage standards. I was an event organizer when I worked for a LGS and this was a huge concern for us. All it takes is 1 disgruntled or crazy person and suddenly things go boom. Sucks. Every piece of bureaucratic nonsense comes from some idiot who sued someone over there own self inflicted idiocy. And the rest of us get punished for it. Like having to have "Hot coffee is hot" on hot coffee. "A New Mexico civil jury awarded $2.86 million to plaintiff Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman who suffered third-degree burns in her pelvic region when she accidentally spilled hot coffee in her lap after purchasing it from a McDonald's restaurant." What should have happened: Judge: Your serious? No you screwed up, it's your fault, deal wit it. Case dismissed. Granny: *unintelligible whining* Judge: buh-bye. That case is actually far more complex than you give it credit for. www.caoc.org/?pg=factsNot mentiond in that link is that the jury did award her $2.8 million, but most of that was punitive and she settled out of court for $600,000. It also doesn't mention that she was hospitalised for a week, needed at-home care for another three weeks and was unable to walk properly for two years. Yeah. Holding hot liquid between your legs only occurs with a deficit of mental acuity. Or nowhere else to put the cup.
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Post by ishruul on Mar 9, 2017 18:16:44 GMT
Well...restructuration in business is common practice. PP just is in this period I think, and what they did was thought in their best interest for the future of the brand and not our fragile little feelings.
That being said, in the short run it will hurt them. We do use (used) a Press Ganger to run our Steamroller and help recruit people. Luckily for us, we approach a game store and asked them to maintain a stock of Warmachine/Hordes starter box so we could have some option for people just wanting to join us or try the game at least.
But I get it. I understand the "why", yet I feel bad. Still, remember they did implement the CiD (we'll see how that turn out soon), they brought a new faction and they now give freely the pdf of card (hooray for more frequent errata, really, I like those...looking at you Stormlance).
So, I won't stop playing for the forum thingy, Hell, I found this place, that's a win right there.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 9, 2017 18:27:12 GMT
The compensation of points could be used to establish an employer-employee relationship as they were compensated but, the compensation doesn't meet federal wage standards. I was an event organizer when I worked for a LGS and this was a huge concern for us. All it takes is 1 disgruntled or crazy person and suddenly things go boom. Sucks. Every piece of bureaucratic nonsense comes from some idiot who sued someone over there own self inflicted idiocy. And the rest of us get punished for it. Like having to have "Hot coffee is hot" on hot coffee. "A New Mexico civil jury awarded $2.86 million to plaintiff Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman who suffered third-degree burns in her pelvic region when she accidentally spilled hot coffee in her lap after purchasing it from a McDonald's restaurant." What should have happened: Judge: Your serious? No you screwed up, it's your fault, deal wit it. Case dismissed. Granny: *unintelligible whining* Judge: buh-bye. Instead we now cater to entitled brats who deliberately slip up on ketchup packages to engage in what is the new get-rich-quick-scheme/scam that is suing. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572942/Teacher-awarded-230-000-compensation-slipping-ketchup-sachet-causing-severe-injury.html) The more people cater to it the worse life gets. I mean what's next suing God? www.nbcnews.com/id/20827350/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/nebraska-state-senator-sues-god/Oh. As often as that case comes up as an example of a frivolous lawsuit, I feel bound to remind everyone that the coffee in question was like two hundred degrees, and she only sued for medical fees - the court decided that more was owed. You don't get third-degree burns from spilling a drinkable liquid in your lap .
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 18:28:11 GMT
off topic fun fact: so the "hot coffee is hot" case which is often touted as a form of "this is why Tort's are ridiculous" is sort of a non-starter. The employees at that mcdonalds got tired of listening to customers complain that the coffee was not hot enough, so they turned the temperature up on it. However those individual employees have no assets, so you sue the corporation that does, and you craft a legal argument around "there is no warning that the coffee may be hot enough to cause burns". As employees of the corporation the corporation was legally responsible for making sure that this could not have happened, which the jury found it did not have the safeguards in place to do. What people don't often cite is that the warning on the cup was not the panacea: the coffee machines are now standardized so they cannot possibly produce coffee over a certain temperature so that your average counter worker at McDonalds cannot say "Man Firetruck these people, they want hot coffee, Firetruck 'em i'll give 'em hot coffee" and turn the burner up from 120 degrees to, say something between Ghost Pepper and Tsar Bomba. The cup warning is just one method of many systems put in place to limit liability, it is not the only one. I bring this up because as a former paralegal this particular legal anecdote drives me bonkers. haha! THe lady was not awarded because the cup didn't say "hot shit inside, stupid", it was a totality of events where McDonald's failed to prove to a Jury that it had sufficient safeguards in place to avoid tort culpability of negligence. I only bring it up because the Hot Coffee Tort case is largely understood as to its relevance to Tort Law, tort judgements, and arguments for Tort Reform. Back on topic: Re; Ed Bourelle leaving privateer - no idea if there's relevance there or not. He was there for a long time I believe, and was a Project Manager and their in house cartographer if memory serves. I am not sure how much influence he had over cultural or legal stuff. Still, interesting. Didn't know Bourelle was gone.
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 9, 2017 18:29:49 GMT
Sucks. Every piece of bureaucratic nonsense comes from some idiot who sued someone over there own self inflicted idiocy. And the rest of us get punished for it. Like having to have "Hot coffee is hot" on hot coffee. "A New Mexico civil jury awarded $2.86 million to plaintiff Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman who suffered third-degree burns in her pelvic region when she accidentally spilled hot coffee in her lap after purchasing it from a McDonald's restaurant." What should have happened: Judge: Your serious? No you screwed up, it's your fault, deal wit it. Case dismissed. Granny: *unintelligible whining* Judge: buh-bye. That case is actually far more complex than you give it credit for. www.caoc.org/?pg=factsNot mentiond in that link is that the jury did award her $2.8 million, but most of that was punitive and she settled out of court for $600,000. It also doesn't mention that she was hospitalised for a week, needed at-home care for another three weeks and was unable to walk properly for two years. Alright explain to me how putting hot coffee in your lap and taking off the lid and burning yourself is *complex* I can understand it if a McDonald's employee took off the lid and intentionally dumped it on her but according to the sources provided that didn't happen. Why didn't she sue the clothing company for making the pants so absorbent? Or maybe she could have use a cup holder, or asked for help form her son driving the car? No she choose, by her own will, to do something that had the potential to cause her harm because it was more convenient to her. If not how would that be different had she taken the lid off over her head? Take some Bloody responsibility over yourself. So unless anyone can produce something that looks anything like a deliberate attempt by Mcdonalds Inc. to do this woman harm it's just crap. If you can I will fully concede the point. I have had my Humorous snapped training BJJ. I didn't blame my trainer because I knew what I was getting into and the product I was buying. Why should he pay for something beyond his control? And yeah it sucked for the 9 months i needed to heal and the money I had to spend to support myself. tough. Life hands you a bum hand sometimes and it isn't anyone's fault but mine for how I played it. In any case even if this is a bad example, and i maintain it isn't for the moment, I could provide many others to exemplify my point. Citations ready upon request.
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Post by Jabberwokk on Mar 9, 2017 18:43:02 GMT
*snip* Edit:hit, i was late to this party wasn't i. Sorry Jabberwok didn't mean to pigpile there ! No worries man. These kind of things you gotta be able to give as good as you get. Pile away my friend. At the end of the day my point is either right or it is wrong. If I'm wrong I want to know why and do i have a consistent worldview that lines up with it. Care less about being right than I do about being aligned to the truth.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Mar 9, 2017 18:44:40 GMT
That case is actually far more complex than you give it credit for. www.caoc.org/?pg=factsNot mentiond in that link is that the jury did award her $2.8 million, but most of that was punitive and she settled out of court for $600,000. It also doesn't mention that she was hospitalised for a week, needed at-home care for another three weeks and was unable to walk properly for two years. Alright explain to me how putting hot coffee in your lap and taking off the lid and burning yourself is *complex* I can understand it if a McDonald's employee took off the lid and intentionally dumped it on her but according to the sources provided that didn't happen. Why didn't she sue the clothing company for making the pants so absorbent? Or maybe she could have use a cup holder, or asked for help form her son driving the car? No she choose, by her own will, to do something that had the potential to cause her harm because it was more convenient to her. If not how would that be different had she taken the lid off over her head? Take some Bloody responsibility over yourself. So unless anyone can produce something that looks anything like a deliberate attempt by Mcdonalds Inc. to do this woman harm it's just crap. If you can I will fully concede the point. I have had my Humorous snapped training BJJ. I didn't blame my trainer because I knew what I was getting into and the product I was buying. Why should he pay for something beyond his control? And yeah it sucked for the 9 months i needed to heal and the money I had to spend to support myself. tough. Life hands you a bum hand sometimes and it isn't anyone's fault but mine for how I played it. In any case even if this is a bad example, and i maintain it isn't for the moment, I could provide many others to exemplify my point. Citations ready upon request. Firstly, form the article I cited: "Liebeck’s case was far from an isolated event. McDonald’s had received more than 700 previous reports of injury from its coffee, including reports of third-degree burns, and had paid settlements in some cases." and "McDonald’s admitted it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years. The risk had repeatedly been brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits" In other words, MDonald's had ignored it when it had happened previously. Secondly, again, from the article I cited: "Mrs. Liebeck was not driving when her coffee spilled, nor was the car she was in moving. She was the passenger in a car that was stopped in the parking lot of the McDonald’s where she bought the coffee." and from Wikipedia "Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of a 1989 Ford Probe owned by her grandson Chris, which did not have cup holders" so the car wasn't in motion and it didn't have cup holders. Thirdly, again from the article I cited, "McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers were unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then-required temperature." and "McDonald’s admitted it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not." this shows that McDonald's had, as one juror put it "a callous disregard for the safety of the people." I suggest that you read this article, and the many other articles availible. If reading legal articles is not your thing (I don't blame you, it's not really mine either), here's a video for you to watch
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 19:27:10 GMT
And McDonalds said those things simply because it was easier to shell out settlement money than taking customer backlash for stating the obvious. The obvious being "Coffee is hot dum-dums! Don't do unsafe things with hot liquid! You people are morons!"
The real problem is with judges allowing a litigious society to exist in the first place.
The best thing for that lady to have done was not try to remove the lid of the coffee at all in an unsafe manner. She should have held the cup in one hand and removed the lid with the other if there weren't cup holders. As soon as you do something unsafe that results in your injury, even if someone else also did something wrong like making the coffee genuinely too hot, you've taken all the liability on yourself with your own unsafe action as far as I am concerned. The only way other people are liable is if you did not exacerbate your own situation.
If the coffee cup lid had been improperly fashioned or designed causing the lady to spill the coffee on herself, on top of the coffee being too hot, then the liability should have been on McDonalds.
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