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Post by gunndrakcapthide on Mar 9, 2017 0:25:43 GMT
Andddd, they are giving PG an exclusive model for their services. Sounds like everyone overreacted. Not really. The gift is nice, but it doesn't change the fact that PP has gotten rid of one of the strongest methods of recruiting and retaining users.
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Post by jynxed on Mar 9, 2017 0:26:24 GMT
Andddd, they are giving PG an exclusive model for their services. Sounds like everyone overreacted. Nobody said that that treated the press gangers poorly... People are more miffed that it's evident that PP is doing what they can to cut ties with the majority of the community to focus on CID (which only applies to new models), and the abruptness of the ordeal. You're being really snarky bro. Cut it out.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 0:51:56 GMT
Andddd, they are giving PG an exclusive model for their services. Sounds like everyone overreacted. I don't think being sad and disappointed at being a representative for a company you liked to volunteer for on Tuesday, and not on Wednesday is overreacting. The sendoff mini is a nice touch, as was the letter. However, I can totally understand why its bitter sweet for people that literally have put in years of effort into the Gang and promoting PP, and i can understand a certain amount of frustration at "ya know what, its just too big / hard to manage, so badee badee badee that's all Folks." I can also understand PP's issues: they are probably worried about liability exposure due to the M;TG lawsuit and getting sued in a similar class action suit potentially 1000 ~ claimants strong. Some people spent 1-13 years volunteering for the gang. It's natural that with the suddenness there's going to be some emotional reaction.
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Post by danith00 on Mar 9, 2017 0:56:16 GMT
No one is telling you can't volunteer to help promote Warmahordes. That hasn't been said anywhere. People are upset because their title is being taken away.
It's one thing to be upset over it, but its another to dis a company for making changes and cuts. Warmahordes is much larger and bigger than it was years ago.
If people would just relax, they would notice that this game isn't changing for the worst. It's becoming better. CID is a great tool that will help everyone with the balance issues people seem to think this game has.
Give it time people. Warmahordes will still be the same game you played years ago.
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Post by wayniac on Mar 9, 2017 1:00:26 GMT
Stores could already run events. You didn't need a PG, it just helped; in fact stores were the only ones who could order event kits (e.g. patches for leagues or journeymans), a PG themselves couldn't. Source: Was a PG for a brief period of time last year.
Personally, I liked the fact that you could find a local PG and have someone who had the best interest (supposedly, anyways) in helping new players. Now, if you go to a store and ask about Warmachine, you may find there are people who just aren't interested in helping a newbie learn the ropes, or run into some douchebag who brings out Haley or Butcher for a newbie's first game and crushes them. A PG could have done these things too, but were more inclined to be helpful in growing the community. Most stores I've seen don't want to bother with the community for anything beyond Magic; so volunteers are still needed. As it stands though there's no real difference from before just no official designation, it's up to the store/community to decide whom among them (if anyone at all) is going to be the guy organizing "Warmahordes night" and helping to grow the community and run events. That was the main benefit of the Press Gang: You had someone, independent of the store (you couldn't be a store employee) who wanted to run leagues and events. Now it's shunted off to the game store itself, which often couldn't care less about it and not have the manpower, if they even have anyone on staff who bothers to play the game and knows enough about it to instruct new players or set up events.
That's what makes this such a great loss: Press Gangers were those people who would go above and beyond to say "Hey guys let's do a Journeyman League" or "Hey guys let's do a Steamroller" or even just be able to be "the guy" who would be there to greet new players who showed up and were like "Hey I've heard about this Warmachine game and I'm interested in learning about it". Most stores don't do things like that at all, it's just come down to the game night and hope people give you the time of day. There's no more reaching out to a press ganger to help start up Warmahordes at a store (something else PGs could do; a store that wanted to get started who didn't have anyone of their own could contact their local Press Ganger to come down and run demos)
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 1:06:22 GMT
danith00 Well we disagree, which is fine. It happens in discourse. I know no one is telling me i can't volunteer: i was a tournament organizer for years without being a PG. I was a founding member of Templecon and ran their miniatures the first two years with help from a current and former PG (well... now both former...). I was a founding member of a a few clubs and ran events at those clubs. Being disappointed that your representative status has been revoked != "no one is telling you can't volunteer". Forums going away for social media interaction is a net negative. I do not book face. A tweet is something a bird does. A tumbler is something i put alcohol in, and pinterest is a typo to me. The events at my store are going to die off completely without the press gang (if not my entire community which is held together by a pair of PG's, a wing, a prayer, some bubble gum, and a lot of colorful language). While this place seems cool, decentralized forums into a bunch of fan run ones is a net negative as it at least somewhat splinters the community. I heard through some contacts external playtest is also gone, and as an ex infernal.... yeah that's not a great idea. Apparently from what i heard from contacts the flow of new stuff will be Development to CID. These are all net negatives to me. I get why PP is doing them, every last one of them. I simply don't agree with the changes. EDIT: @ Wayniac - fantastic points about the more casual end of the spectrum. Those are really going to have a hard time catching fire without a rep pushing them.
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Post by danith00 on Mar 9, 2017 1:19:04 GMT
I mean, I feel not using social media is net negative (To use your words).
Just because you don't have a title doesn't mean you can't keep your community together. Your comments are sour.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 1:27:22 GMT
I think they are measured, and my opinion, not sour, but meh, what's that saying about opinions and Urani?
It's cool if we don't agree, but there's not need for shots at one another, frankly.
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Post by Tekanan on Mar 9, 2017 1:27:33 GMT
The events at my store are going to die off completely without the press gang (if not my entire community which is held together by a pair of PG's, a wing, a prayer, some bubble gum, and a lot of colorful language). Why would it die off? I don't think running events require an official PG status. Plus, the support kits can still be ordered from the store isn't it? Unless the reason why events were constantly ran in the past is because it is a requirement to upkeep the PG status? i.e. Since there is no requirement now, ex-PGs won't be bothered doing it because other real life responsibilities can take precedence?
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 9, 2017 1:29:22 GMT
PG's are/were volunteers/fans, often not-store-employees, with nifty potential product rewards directly from PP. I make a good living so don't mind that the PG reward system will go away. Other PGs may not be in the same situation and it may constrain their volunteerism hours (gotta work that job for that miniature habit instead!)
Volunteerism, especially coupled with avid enthusiasm/service to 'other than oneself' is great!
Store owners aren't there for volunteerism. They may have some enthusiasm, especially if it sells, or they happen to be a personal fan of the game. Employees aren't there as volunteers either. If Warmachine/Hordes products sales, and the game night aren't thriving, do we really think a non-volunteer, non-fan, non-enthusiastic owner/employee will continue to buy 'rewards' packages for the game, or waste valuable service-time (for more profitable products/events) on running/supporting WM/Hordes events?
PG's performed the volunteerism/fan/enthusiasm/service role with minimal monetary/service-time outlay (other than 'table time') by owners/employees, and with less regard for personal 'profitability', outside of free models.
But then again, perhaps it's just my experience of seeing the demise of so many miniature games that were only supported by venues/owners that have me egotistically thinking that without my/our PG enthusiasm, a decline will be seen? [Not in our venue, since two of us PG-ers have already noted we'll keep up the volunteerism/EO-ing.]
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 1:29:45 GMT
The events at my store are going to die off completely without the press gang (if not my entire community which is held together by a pair of PG's, a wing, a prayer, some bubble gum, and a lot of colorful language). Why would it die off? I don't think running events require an official PG status. Plus, the support kits can still be ordered from the store isn't it? Unless the reason why events were constantly ran in the past is because it is a requirement to upkeep the PG status? i.e. Since there is no requirement now, ex-PGs won't be bothered doing it because other real life responsibilities can take precedence? Our PG's both traveled a fair distance to run events, which they were compensated for (not hugely, but still). I have a feeling its going to be difficult for them to continue to justify it as both support a few locales. I might be wrong, i hope i am, but i witnessed this with Outriders before... EDIT: sorry i should have expounded more clearly... so regular game night is a small handful of guys unless there is an event going on (even weeknights we can have small point steamrollers, etc). If those end, its going to be a very very small bunch of people, and I have a feeling they will gravitate to other games / stores with a bigger pool of opponents. I dont know where y'all are from, but i'm lucky to be in New England where there are TONS of stores, tons... while that's a good thing, it means a lot of stores don't have a high turnout for regular game night because of the diffusion of players to the high number of locales. Almost any weekend in new england you can go to a steamroller if you want to drive 90 minutes. With these things going into the hands of the stores, most of the employees of the ones that I have been to don't even know how to play WM/H, I think that's going to dry up. The stores with the guys that are employees that play will probably have communities coalesce around them, while my local LGS watering hole store is probably going to have its WM/H base dry up as those players go to the stores iwth employees best suited to support it. THat's probably a more comprehensive answer to what you were actually asking (at least i think).
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Post by Blargaliscious on Mar 9, 2017 1:32:37 GMT
Also, though it's merely hypothesis, there is another outside factor with all of this. Wizards of the Coast are currently entangled in a lawsuit with the judges for Magic the Gathering. The judges put forth that their "volunteer" hours, and the time it takes to keep judge status, is more akin to a job and should be considered\paid for as such. If the lawsuit goes against Wizards, it could have serious implications for any organization with volunteer judges (like PP.) Combined with how difficult it can be to keep all of the PGs on the same page, working effectively, payed, ect. I'm not surprised they have chosen to let the program go, at least for the moment. however, and I'm saying this to all the butt munches in the crowd, don't panic. Let PP explain themselves, and\or let the lawsuit run it's course before making decisions. No reason to get panties in knots and all that.
This lawsuit is a *HUGE* reason to cut the Pressgang program! As much as we may not like it, Privateer Press would be foolish to leave the Pressgang program up and going in light of this lawsuit. Regardless of how much we all want Warmachine / Hordes to do well, the potential for a lawsuit like the one that WotC is facing is a vulnerability big enough to walk a colossal through.
If the judges win the lawsuit against WotC then there will probably be follow-on lawsuits demanding more money for things like health insurance, retirement, etc. While those lawsuits would probably be without merit, the cost of defending against those lawsuits will sink a company, never mind the regulatory hell that could come if the company survives.
Don't be surprised if this initial lawsuit is won by the judges, and the payout is big enough, it could shut down Wizards of the Coast.
And this kind of slash and burn is not new. Battletech has invalidated (made "Unseen") dozens of battlemech designs and units from their background for fear of a lawsuit. And this is not just because of the Harmony Gold lawsuit, anything that was originally developed outside of the company or the development process has become Unseen.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_Gold_USA#Legal_issues_regarding_Macross_copyright
For those of you who have a bad case of Salt-crusted Butt Hurt and think that they should leave the game because of this, I'd recommend that you reconsider. Privateer Press may have given some reasons to cut the Pressgang Program, but if they had said "We're cutting the program for fear of getting sued just like WotC," they would have just admitted guilt and opened themselves up for a lawsuit.
Get over it and go play some games.
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Post by Tekanan on Mar 9, 2017 1:33:15 GMT
Why would it die off? I don't think running events require an official PG status. Plus, the support kits can still be ordered from the store isn't it? Unless the reason why events were constantly ran in the past is because it is a requirement to upkeep the PG status? i.e. Since there is no requirement now, ex-PGs won't be bothered doing it because other real life responsibilities can take precedence? Our PG's both traveled a fair distance to run events, which they were compensated for (not hugely, but still). I have a feeling its going to be difficult for them to continue to justify it as both support a few locales. I might be wrong, i hope i am, but i witnessed this with Outriders before... That sucks! Well, I guess with the liability exposure risk and how big this has become, I'd do the same thing if I were PP.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 9, 2017 1:33:30 GMT
danith, the thing is quite simple, some people, like you, think that the moves PP are doing are good moves, some other people think that they are bad moves that will have a negative effect.
Noone knows who is right. Time will tell.
Both opinions are fine and free to be expressed, but clearly this is one of those situations where we can just wait and see what happens, and if someone feels hurt about some of those decision, telling them that they are overeacting is not going to help.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 1:36:44 GMT
Our PG's both traveled a fair distance to run events, which they were compensated for (not hugely, but still). I have a feeling its going to be difficult for them to continue to justify it as both support a few locales. I might be wrong, i hope i am, but i witnessed this with Outriders before... That sucks! Well, I guess with the liability exposure risk and how big this has become, I'd do the same thing if I were PP. Yeah, i mean, i totally don't blame them. That wizards lawsuit probably has every game company with an external playtest / judge / product-compensated volunteer base worried out of their mind. There's a huge level of exposure there if anyone organized the Gang for a similar class action suit in a labor friendly state (Florida probably wouldn't have been my first choice...).
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