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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 23, 2017 12:13:31 GMT
that is their choice but you can't get more balanced than "everyone gets the exact same toy allotment " Allotment of what? All you did was have a theme list give extra points literally now. Removing nearly all restrictions except the free points given, except for the Beasts/Jacks that you completly overpenalize. And thats not really a theme list at all. Anyway this threads been going round and round in circles. Oh No! My change lets you take free points... like all the themes already do. How is that an argument against the change? What I'm saying is to standardize it for everyone. No matter the theme or faction you can get a max of 3 free models, no more or less. How does it overpenalize jacks?? literally, how? All jacks/infantry/solos taken in theme add up to get the free models. Then if you want a jack theme, you put loose restrictions on the jacks allowed. Same for infantry. Then you tailor bonuses/rules to match. How is it not a theme?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 12:51:50 GMT
Sons of the Tempest has a 'ranged jacks only' restriction and its a contributing factor to Sons of the Tempest being the literal worst. No restriction helps, of course, but as far as contributing factors go it doesn't seem like it's anywhere near the biggest one. You basically miss out on 3 things: cheap melee heavies, arc nodes, and the Centurion tank. Not insignificant, but the mediocrity of the Arcane Tempest models (the actual focus) feels like a much weightier anchor around the neck of the theme. Yeah, but every time I think I could try and run it and realise that If I want to have any melee presence I am forced into running expensive heavies like Stormclads I lose faith in the list. But Sons has a million problems.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 23, 2017 13:28:01 GMT
No restriction helps, of course, but as far as contributing factors go it doesn't seem like it's anywhere near the biggest one. You basically miss out on 3 things: cheap melee heavies, arc nodes, and the Centurion tank. Not insignificant, but the mediocrity of the Arcane Tempest models (the actual focus) feels like a much weightier anchor around the neck of the theme. Yeah, but every time I think I could try and run it and realise that If I want to have any melee presence I am forced into running expensive heavies like Stormclads I lose faith in the list. But Sons has a million problems. An all ranged theme is supposed to have problems fielding melee. That's part of it being thematic. It's also not like Cygnar doesn't have some of the best guns and Rat in the game. You're not gimping yourself. You just don't get to have every single base covered with the most efficient option in the game. It's a trade off. Also... 18 point Stormclad is expensive??? I'm done. [joking jab] When it rains you and your high horse must be the first to know. [/jab]
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Post by jisidro on Jun 23, 2017 13:40:03 GMT
This is a tired excuse. Blaming/Using the future as a justification is a cop out. And "Just Use 3 jacks and deal with it!" isn't a good one either. Im not saying I know Circle very well or that its well designed and balanced, but I am saying imposing this sort of restrictiveness that makes playing it pretty miserable won't create a positive sort of game balance.
I don't get the "Use 3 jacks and deal with it!"...
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 23, 2017 13:41:07 GMT
No restriction helps, of course, but as far as contributing factors go it doesn't seem like it's anywhere near the biggest one. You basically miss out on 3 things: cheap melee heavies, arc nodes, and the Centurion tank. Not insignificant, but the mediocrity of the Arcane Tempest models (the actual focus) feels like a much weightier anchor around the neck of the theme. Yeah, but every time I think I could try and run it and realise that If I want to have any melee presence I am forced into running expensive heavies like Stormclads I lose faith in the list. But Sons has a million problems. SotT problems: 1. Allows colossals that shoot lightning, considers the stormclad a shooty jack, but no ironclads or lancers. 2. Gun mages get CRA, but the only one that gets to pick a shot type is the gun mage its centered on, so that one can have range 14, but the others are stuck at 10. 3. No caster attachment available. At all. 4. The only models that can be taken for free are the ones you take first to get free models. 5. There are 3 gun mage units and they all do the same thing. SotT needs a few changes to be good: 1. Change it to only disallow lightning immune warjacks, if a warjack restriction is really needed. 2. Either open up the available free options to include junior and strangeways, or release more solo options. 3. Either allow the squire, or release a gun mage caster attatchment. 4. CID the gun mage units to give them different roles. 5. Release another unit option. Maybe a gun mage artillary crew? Idk. 5. Maybe reconsider theme benefits. CRA makes me sad (it interacts very poorly with snipe). Anyway, I think the biggest problems with SotT is a lack of options. No melee heavies is an awful restriction, because it disallows ironclads, hammersmiths, and lancers, but somehow fireflies, hurricanes, and stormclads fit the gun mage theme. The rest of it needs to be done through releasing new options. (Not that I'm asking for another CID cycle right now. But somewhere down the line this should be looked at.)
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 23, 2017 13:41:08 GMT
Yeah, but every time I think I could try and run it and realise that If I want to have any melee presence I am forced into running expensive heavies like Stormclads I lose faith in the list. But Sons has a million problems. An all ranged theme is supposed to have problems fielding melee. That's part of it being thematic. It's also not like Cygnar doesn't have some of the best guns and Rat in the game. You're not gimping yourself. You just don't get to have every single base covered with the most efficient option in the game. It's a trade off. Also... 18 point Stormclad is expensive??? I'm done. [joking jab] When it rains you and your high horse must be the first to know. [/jab] Compared to a 12 point ironclad it is pretty expensive. First world problems and all that. It just makes you sad to compare them to beast point values so don't try. Though sons of tempest could take a 14 point reliant though which has a decent pow 17 in melee. Obviously not with every caster but some Cygnar casters have good damage buffs for them.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 23, 2017 13:43:24 GMT
Yeah, but every time I think I could try and run it and realise that If I want to have any melee presence I am forced into running expensive heavies like Stormclads I lose faith in the list. But Sons has a million problems. An all ranged theme is supposed to have problems fielding melee. That's part of it being thematic. It's also not like Cygnar doesn't have some of the best guns and Rat in the game. You're not gimping yourself. You just don't get to have every single base covered with the most efficient option in the game. It's a trade off. Also... 18 point Stormclad is expensive??? I'm done. [joking jab] When it rains you and your high horse must be the first to know. [/jab] But it isn't thematic. Look at the stormclad and tell me its a shooty warjack. Look at the hurricane and tell me it fits the gun mage image. I'd rather it restrict the theme from lightning-immune jacks.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 23, 2017 13:43:53 GMT
Sons of the Tempest has a 'ranged jacks only' restriction and its a contributing factor to Sons of the Tempest being the literal worst.
It's not a good theme when you have 3 units that do the same and a few solos that also do the same... but the biggest issue IMO is that the other themes don't have restrictions. That difference really kills it by comparision.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 13:45:25 GMT
I don't get the "Use 3 jacks and deal with it!"... For allot of factions, limiting jacks to a single "Thematic" thing would be limiting it to 1 chasis. Or as in 2-4 jacks.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 23, 2017 13:53:41 GMT
An all ranged theme is supposed to have problems fielding melee. That's part of it being thematic. It's also not like Cygnar doesn't have some of the best guns and Rat in the game. You're not gimping yourself. You just don't get to have every single base covered with the most efficient option in the game. It's a trade off. Also... 18 point Stormclad is expensive??? I'm done. [joking jab] When it rains you and your high horse must be the first to know. [/jab] But it isn't thematic. Look at the stormclad and tell me its a shooty warjack. Look at the hurricane and tell me it fits the gun mage image. I'd rather it restrict the theme from lightning-immune jacks. Stormclad has a gun and it's a way of getting a melee option. It's literally the exact thing you would want to be able to take in an all shooting army. The Stormclad might not be super with it's gun but it's a gift to cover a weakness the theme has. Does Victor/Conquest fits the wintergaurd theme? I think Colossal don't really fit any infantry based theme. But Sons seems to be designed to have a good jack gun line to support the flimsy infantry gunline. Colossals would fit that role. But again that's my opinion of what it "seems" to be designed as. [edit:] I'm not arguing Sons is perfect. But it's serviceable as a thematic, non competitive theme. I think more people are looking for that level of power than anything else. Again, I will beat this reference into the ground but Children of the Dragon is stupidly restrictive (both beasts and infantry) and the bonuses it gives are laughable at best. but it still plays and can make a fun game.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 23, 2017 13:54:17 GMT
I don't get the "Use 3 jacks and deal with it!"... For allot of factions, limiting jacks to a single "Thematic" thing would be limiting it to 1 chasis. Or as in 2-4 jacks. Kind of like limiting circle to wolds only or legion to nephilim only.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 23, 2017 13:56:42 GMT
I don't get the "Use 3 jacks and deal with it!"... For allot of factions, limiting jacks to a single "Thematic" thing would be limiting it to 1 chasis. Or as in 2-4 jacks.
Oh, got it!
Yes, it'll always end up being that in one way or another... Storm Division could have a electrical immunity warjacks only or warjacks with electrical typed weapons... sounds flufy but it ends up being a few warjacks instead of the whole stable.
I think both approaches work, I just don't think they work at the sme time. Previously theme lists represented situations and meant to be fluffy more than not... so the situation ruled. Now they say they want 50% of theeme lists in tournaments as a guideline (I believe yhey already missed. I bet on 85%+ as soon as everyone has a "power" theme) so massive restriction on BG centered themes have to be VERY well thought out and the benefits must show that. You can't have Heavy Metal (All the warjacks + all the support for them) and Bones (6 warbeasts + gargantuan + support) or the Tharn theme that restricts Solos/Units AND warbeasts... and think they are the same...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 14:03:43 GMT
You can't have Heavy Metal (All the warjacks + all the support for them) and Bones (6 warbeasts + gargantuan + support) or the Tharn theme that restricts Solos/Units AND warbeasts... and think they are the same... [/p][/quote] I don't. Anyway this thread keeps looping and I keep getting drawn too it because it pops up as a message. Kind of like limiting circle to wolds only or legion to nephilim only. And man did people LOVE those themes. I don't mind a Hard Limitation like that if there are still allot of permitted choices, but 2-4 is ridiculous. Or its not THAT ridiculous if it's well-managed selection of choices.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 23, 2017 14:16:37 GMT
SotT problems: <snip> SotT needs a few changes to be good: <snip> Anyway, I think the biggest problems with SotT is a lack of options. No melee heavies is an awful restriction, because it disallows ironclads, hammersmiths, and lancers, but somehow fireflies, hurricanes, and stormclads fit the gun mage theme. Not having a caster attachment or having a very narrow selection of models is actually a feature of themes, not a bug. The problem lies with the models themselves and perhaps the synergy between the jack options vs the infantry options. Ghost Fleet doesn't have a caster attachment and that's 1 reason why you will never see Skarre 1 in it (the other is that her feat does nothing for Point Blank attacks), that's by design. Ghost Fleet is possibly even more restricted in its infantry options with basically allowing 2 units, a weapon crew and a handful of solos. The reason nobody played it at first is because it's stupidly restrictive and only uses models that were deemed bad. Then people actually gave it a shot and came to the conclusion that the ghost pirates are actually not so bad as they first thought, so they learned to work around the restrictions to use these models in a theme that accommodated them. The problem lies with Gunmages, not the restrictions, because if they were compelling enough and the theme bonuses were good, the restrictions wouldn't matter as much.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 23, 2017 14:36:31 GMT
Anyway, I think the biggest problems with SotT is a lack of options. No melee heavies is an awful restriction, because it disallows ironclads, hammersmiths, and lancers, but somehow fireflies, hurricanes, and stormclads fit the gun mage theme. The rest of it needs to be done through releasing new options. (Not that I'm asking for another CID cycle right now. But somewhere down the line this should be looked at.) As soon as Children of the Dragon gets non-character melee heavy nephilim
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