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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 23, 2017 14:59:06 GMT
Anyway, I think the biggest problems with SotT is a lack of options. No melee heavies is an awful restriction, because it disallows ironclads, hammersmiths, and lancers, but somehow fireflies, hurricanes, and stormclads fit the gun mage theme. The rest of it needs to be done through releasing new options. (Not that I'm asking for another CID cycle right now. But somewhere down the line this should be looked at.) As soon as Children of the Dragon gets non-character melee heavy nephilim Responding to both of your comments. Stormclad doesn't have a gun, it has a sword that shoots lightning. It looks silly in a gun mage theme. Children has twice as many unit and solo options as Sons. It has 6 solos you can take for free over Sons' 2 (but I'll grant that the shepherd and forsaken aren't good options for being free, so we can say 4). And there are 4 CAs in Children that can be taken for free over Sons' 1. I'm not even trying to compare power levels because I think both Children and Sons are meta dependent. And for those mentioning Ghost Fleet, that's a bad example. No one plays it for fun because it's incredibly restrictive. They only started playing it when they found a way to break it. Not a good example of theme design.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 23, 2017 15:24:10 GMT
As soon as Children of the Dragon gets non-character melee heavy nephilim Responding to both of your comments. Stormclad doesn't have a gun, it has a sword that shoots lightning. It looks silly in a gun mage theme. Children has twice as many unit and solo options as Sons. It has 6 solos you can take for free over Sons' 2 (but I'll grant that the shepherd and forsaken aren't good options for being free, so we can say 4). And there are 4 CAs in Children that can be taken for free over Sons' 1. I'm not even trying to compare power levels because I think both Children and Sons are meta dependent. And for those mentioning Ghost Fleet, that's a bad example. No one plays it for fun because it's incredibly restrictive. They only started playing it when they found a way to break it. Not a good example of theme design. hay, woah, hey...woah. If we're counting models lets count all the models. CotD Colossal: 0 Sons Colossal: 2 CotD Heavies: 0 Sons Heavies: 5 CotD Lights: 4 Sons Lights: 6 CotD Lesser: 3 Sons Lesser: 0 I might get more infantry models. But Sons clearly has the advantage in Battlegroup. I'm also not commenting on power level. I'm strictly saying that when it comes to restrictions they are both on the extreme end of things. But CotD is "serviceable" or as you say "meta dependent". But if both of them work to a degree why does Sons need a change? Again I thought the entire point of this thread is that "we" (loosely) want to make themes a middle of the road option. Where they are playable, thematic, and not over powering. Sons seems just as playable as CotD. therefore it's pretty much where it needs to be. I don't think either theme needs an overhaul or a mountain of new releases as you asked for. Maybe CRA doesn't mesh well. A model here or there wouldn't hurt. But to rewrite the jack allotment, give arcane shield on-a-stick for free, a rule breaking caster attachment, more units, and new theme bonuses? You're blatantly asking for more and more power in a faction that's already on top. There has to be some give and take. Cygnar needs to have some imperfections.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 23, 2017 15:43:42 GMT
As soon as Children of the Dragon gets non-character melee heavy nephilim Responding to both of your comments. Stormclad doesn't have a gun, it has a sword that shoots lightning. It looks silly in a gun mage theme. Children has twice as many unit and solo options as Sons. It has 6 solos you can take for free over Sons' 2 (but I'll grant that the shepherd and forsaken aren't good options for being free, so we can say 4). And there are 4 CAs in Children that can be taken for free over Sons' 1. I'm not even trying to compare power levels because I think both Children and Sons are meta dependent. And for those mentioning Ghost Fleet, that's a bad example. No one plays it for fun because it's incredibly restrictive. They only started playing it when they found a way to break it. Not a good example of theme design. Part of the problem with only looking at the infantry in cotd is the benefits of the theme focus on beasts. You get free models from beast points, nephilim get unyielding, and then you get +1 on a roll. So cotd is a beast theme with a shit selection of beasts and a decent selection of infantry. Sons is an infantry theme with a shit selection of infantry and a decent selection of jacks. At this point you're basically arguing about whether it's better to be punched in the face or kicked in the groin.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 23, 2017 16:19:42 GMT
Responding to both of your comments. Stormclad doesn't have a gun, it has a sword that shoots lightning. It looks silly in a gun mage theme. Children has twice as many unit and solo options as Sons. It has 6 solos you can take for free over Sons' 2 (but I'll grant that the shepherd and forsaken aren't good options for being free, so we can say 4). And there are 4 CAs in Children that can be taken for free over Sons' 1. I'm not even trying to compare power levels because I think both Children and Sons are meta dependent. And for those mentioning Ghost Fleet, that's a bad example. No one plays it for fun because it's incredibly restrictive. They only started playing it when they found a way to break it. Not a good example of theme design. Part of the problem with only looking at the infantry in cotd is the benefits of the theme focus on beasts. You get free models from beast points, nephilim get unyielding, and then you get +1 on a roll. So cotd is a beast theme with a shit selection of beasts and a decent selection of infantry. Sons is an infantry theme with a shit selection of infantry and a decent selection of jacks. At this point you're basically arguing about whether it's better to be punched in the face or kicked in the groin. face. Or is "avoid it all together" an option? cuz it is in terms of themes. Unless you like getting punched in the face and kicked in the groin. Then it's perfect... I think I'm understanding PP's design logic.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 23, 2017 16:28:29 GMT
You see this is why themes like Children of the Dragon and Sons of the Tempest are the best types of theme force, they make playing out of theme actually look like a viable option. Now if only Oracles of Annihilation, Heavy Metal and Storm Division didn't exist.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 23, 2017 16:32:51 GMT
SotT has 12 options for warjacks... I think Conflict Chamber forgot Firefly, so 13... You lose the Lancer/Centurion/HammerSmith/Ironclad and Thunderhead as he is both the other themes (Why?)... Still a lot more than quite a few factions
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:30:37 GMT
You see this is why themes like Children of the Dragon and Sons of the Tempest are the best types of theme force, they make playing out of theme actually look like a viable option. Now if only Oracles of Annihilation, Heavy Metal and Storm Division didn't exist. Yeah, if they didn't exist pp would be putting a lot of effort into designing lists that are worse than playing non theme.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:31:22 GMT
SotT has 12 options for warjacks... I think Conflict Chamber forgot Firefly, so 13... You lose the Lancer/Centurion/HammerSmith/Ironclad and Thunderhead as he is both the other themes (Why?)... Still a lot more than quite a few factions Thunderhead is in both other themes because he doesn't have a bonded warcaster.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 23, 2017 21:42:37 GMT
SotT has 12 options for warjacks... I think Conflict Chamber forgot Firefly, so 13... You lose the Lancer/Centurion/HammerSmith/Ironclad and Thunderhead as he is both the other themes (Why?)... Still a lot more than quite a few factions Thunderhead is in both other themes because he doesn't have a bonded warcaster. This is generally true for other factions as well though not to the same extent. Avatar of Menoth is only in 1 theme. Behemoth is only in 1 theme. Deathjack/Malice is in one (out of 2).
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:44:18 GMT
Thunderhead is in both other themes because he doesn't have a bonded warcaster. This is generally true for other factions as well though not to the same extent. Avatar of Menoth is only in 1 theme. Behemoth is only in 1 theme. Deathjack/Malice is in one (out of 2). The other half is that Thunderhead is thematically appropriate for both he is in. But don't worry because even though this should theoretically double the amount of Thunderhead you see, 2*0=0.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 23, 2017 21:46:33 GMT
SotT has 12 options for warjacks... I think Conflict Chamber forgot Firefly, so 13... You lose the Lancer/Centurion/HammerSmith/Ironclad and Thunderhead as he is both the other themes (Why?)... Still a lot more than quite a few factions Thunderhead is in both other themes because he doesn't have a bonded warcaster. And he fits nicely into those themes. He's one of the most advanced Cygnaran Warjacks (Heavy Metal), and he's the epitome of voltaic storm chamber technology (Storm Division).
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:48:10 GMT
Thunderhead is in both other themes because he doesn't have a bonded warcaster. And he fits nicely into those themes. He's one of the most advanced Cygnaran Warjacks (Heavy Metal), and he's the epitome of voltaic storm chamber technology (Storm Division). It still bugs me that brickhouse isn't in Heavy Metal. He's the heaviest metal we have and he would suit a bunch of casters in that theme.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 23, 2017 21:59:02 GMT
And he fits nicely into those themes. He's one of the most advanced Cygnaran Warjacks (Heavy Metal), and he's the epitome of voltaic storm chamber technology (Storm Division). It still bugs me that brickhouse isn't in Heavy Metal. He's the heaviest metal we have and he would suit a bunch of casters in that theme. It bugs me that a lot of character jacks/beasts aren't in various themes, despite their thematic appropriateness. Why isn't Megalith in Bones? or Discordia in Forges? Moros in Shadows? Kharybdis in Ghost Fleet? There's not a ton of rationale behind why certain characters are available in theme and others aren't. And let's not forget that the original 4 warmachine factions get more access to their original 4 character jacks (Avatar, Thunderhead, Deathjack, and Behemoth) becaus they're not associated with a single caster and don't have any bond.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 22:12:55 GMT
It still bugs me that brickhouse isn't in Heavy Metal. He's the heaviest metal we have and he would suit a bunch of casters in that theme. It bugs me that a lot of character jacks/beasts aren't in various themes, despite their thematic appropriateness. Why isn't Megalith in Bones? or Discordia in Forges? Moros in Shadows? Kharybdis in Ghost Fleet? There's not a ton of rationale behind why certain characters are available in theme and others aren't. And let's not forget that the original 4 warmachine factions get more access to their original 4 character jacks (Avatar, Thunderhead, Deathjack, and Behemoth) becaus they're not associated with a single caster and don't have any bond. Yeah, imo I think that every theme should include 1 to 2 appropriate character jacks/beasts and sometimes some thematic mercs/minions. If the game is to be thememachine (which h I have very few problems with) then let players take lesser used pieces and not lose out on options because of it.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 23, 2017 22:28:18 GMT
I sure hope Cygnar's Morrowan Theme (whenever that comes out) allows Gallant outside of Blaize.
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