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Post by Netherby on Jul 30, 2017 3:00:37 GMT
Netherby , take a look at my edited post. The WG have the UA and I've added an Option 2. Which one do you think handles Cryx better as a general match up? I really think you need the WGI sprays into the Banes. Takes care of the Prowl rule from the theme and you can hit a lot of them. They have no threat extension any more, so your infantry in theory gets to spray them down before they get to hit anything. The second list is probably better into Ghost Fleet. One thing to remember with the Clam jacks is that both Cryx lists will probably have a Machine Wraith and can make more of them with the battle engine. Machine Wraiths open Clam jacks and then they die horribly. Banes are also rather hardy infantry, especially with the Wraith Engine changes. I would want the first list into Dark Host as the Rifles won't have any really good targets (what with stealth, incorp and arm 20).
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 30, 2017 3:51:26 GMT
Netherby , take a look at my edited post. The WG have the UA and I've added an Option 2. Which one do you think handles Cryx better as a general match up? I really think you need the WGI sprays into the Banes. Takes care of the Prowl rule from the theme and you can hit a lot of them. They have no threat extension any more, so your infantry in theory gets to spray them down before they get to hit anything. The second list is probably better into Ghost Fleet. One thing to remember with the Clam jacks is that both Cryx lists will probably have a Machine Wraith and can make more of them with the battle engine. Machine Wraiths open Clam jacks and then they die horribly. Banes are also rather hardy infantry, especially with the Wraith Engine changes. I would want the first list into Dark Host as the Rifles won't have any really good targets (what with stealth, incorp and arm 20). So, I think you're saying if I was just worried about Ghost Fleet, take the WGRC for one more hound of shooting, but if I want a general Cryx drop bring the WGDS and leave the Devastator at home. I think that's solid advice. Machine wraiths suck and they make Devastators really sad. I've never been unhappy with double Kodiaks, and having two of them 23" up on Turn 1 is sick. So I think this is the list. Khador - Butcher 3 Kommand Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - War Dog - PC: 3 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 10 Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
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Post by Netherby on Jul 30, 2017 5:14:23 GMT
The WGI under the mini feat can usually almost wipe out a unit of Warriors. You will need to double up on some sprays to catch the ones that tough and the ones that don't get wounded. But I think it's the right thing to take into the matchup. Double Kodiak is always good to have screening Butcher. Vent Steam is strong enough to kill Warriors and I don't think they get the bonus armour against it from the battle engine because it's just a 'take a pow 12 damage roll' ability. Oh a thing I learned recently is that Machine Wraiths can control character jacks now. So you have to be careful with Ruin, since they can even use him to remove your own upkeeps
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Aug 1, 2017 20:09:59 GMT
I'm a bit disconnected here. If ghost fleet has low power, how do they exactly deal with Khador warjacks?
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 1, 2017 20:16:33 GMT
I'm a bit disconnected here. If ghost fleet has low power, how do they exactly deal with Khador warjacks? With a -7 ARM swing with Denny. Feat, parasite and dark shroud.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 1, 2017 21:15:53 GMT
Also the stinkin pirates all get gang, and just a truck load of attacks. I think they are like pow10 +2 from gang plus 1d6 from charge, then get a 2nd attack at pow11, then have like 4 plus guys doing that with at least a -2ARM swing if not more. Or if you have so many warjacks, they are just ignoring them and CRAing your Caster to death after they have been Scourged and debuffed. Fun times!
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 2, 2017 2:22:36 GMT
I'm a bit disconnected here. If ghost fleet has low power, how do they exactly deal with Khador warjacks? kaos, Easily, unfortunately. Denny has 3 armor debuffs, the pirates have gang, and point blank (so 2 attacks each, one being a charge). It's sick.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 2, 2017 3:34:23 GMT
OW 1 is actually pretty great. Into her. the ghost fleet ignores concealment but not concealment for purposes of stealth. With Scrapjack she can hand out buffs or do pull effects or the like much farther away, and either the OW or Scrapjack can tear through infantry like nobodies business.
My recommendation is instead of teching her further in infantry killing, to instead cover her weaknesses and give her some serious armor cracking support.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 2, 2017 6:24:48 GMT
So I think this is the list. Khador - Butcher 3 Kommand Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - War Dog - PC: 3 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 10 Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 As it turns out, this is identical to the list I've ended up at after going through several revisions with B3 in WGK. I'm pairing it with Old Witch 2 in Jaws of the Wolf (next big tourney for me won't be until after her release, so getting practice in now). Cheers, Dave
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 2, 2017 11:05:32 GMT
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 2, 2017 11:29:20 GMT
thebuoyancyofwater Dave, What's your OW2 build and who do you drop her into vs the butcher? Currently, it's this: Jaws of the WolfOld Witch 2 +27 -Conquest -37 -Behemoth -25 Widowmaker Marksman -0 Battle Mechaniks (Min) -3 -Battle Mechanik Officer -0 Kazay Assassins (Max) -15 -Underboss -4 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Widowmaker Scouts -8 I've been pleased with it so far, the only issues have been me being too aggressive with Old Witch and so getting her killed. But that's part of learning a new caster I guess She is playing into Warmachine, except Cryx, and Trolls at the moment. List might change up a little as I try different match ups. Behemoth with Reconstruct is a pain to deal with, and Windstorm has been solid for protecting the squishy models when required. A conquest with access to speed, damage and accuracy buffs who can be made very difficult to shoot is solid, plus Creeping Barrage adds extra control when you land a Black Wings and want to extend the amount of no. Widowmakers assist the jacks by either picking off survivors of their blasts or taking out individual pieces as required. Eliminators are excellent targets for 1-focus Boundless Charges and the assassins really like Curse of Shadows. Oh, finally, the mechanik officer has proved a surprise! I really like being able to spread the mechaniks out more, and his repair is excellent on top of that. With Windstorm, all the mechaniks are safe, so can play a little further up the field, which helps when Reconstruct inevitably triggers! Like I say, I'm still playing around a little with the list, but I like it for now. I've considered minimizing the assassins for Yuri, but having a full unit ensures there's still plenty around when the lines meet. Or, dropping them entirely for Yuri, some manhunters and some kossites, though I'm not convinced. Cheers, Dave
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 2, 2017 19:00:35 GMT
Has nobody talked about Butcher 2 since it's just not unrealistic to play him competitively in a 2 list pair? Because, well, B2 would be amazing, right? A sea of dudes is just tailor made for Homicidal Maniac and Conferred Rage. Put Fury + Ravager on the Grolar and you've got 2 PacMen to just chew through...well...everything. All at once. Like, really, all on one turn. (For those that don't know, the Grolar's 1" push and advance happens before you box the model).
(OK, you can now add your chorus of how unreliable he his, and how completely and totally screwed you are with a swing of 7 on ARM).
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Post by sand20go on Aug 2, 2017 20:53:09 GMT
Has nobody talked about Butcher 2 since it's just not unrealistic to play him competitively in a 2 list pair? Because, well, B2 would be amazing, right? A sea of dudes is just tailor made for Homicidal Maniac and Conferred Rage. Put Fury + Ravager on the Grolar and you've got 2 PacMen to just chew through...well...everything. All at once. Like, really, all on one turn. (For those that don't know, the Grolar's 1" push and advance happens before you box the model). (OK, you can now add your chorus of how unreliable he his, and how completely and totally screwed you are with a swing of 7 on ARM). No he could absolutely work. But I think the problem is how trivially easy it is to force the issue here. What _I_ would do is simply allow you to pack man to your hearts content with Butcher (and manybe even Growler) EXCEPT for the three leaders and 9 Rifle dudes of my Min units. I probably also try to keep my hellslinger back and ditto, If at all possible, my wraith engine. Then, after you blow through 30+ models I 1) Feat (-2 ARM) 2) Parasite (-3 ARM) 3) Scourge. It need be a pirite or a bone chicken or SOMETHING goes in. 3) Run the Wraight Engine in (-2 ARM) Now Butcher is base ARM 11. Rifle Dudes are hitting at Dice -1. Even with a LOT of focus you are going to start getting pinged and worn down. You also have other shooting and then other stuff. The problem is that with Denny1 GF's shots are turned up to 11 (hah!). Denny 1 gunline was very viable in MK2. But guarantee of at LEAST 2 rifle dudes coming back from each unit if you can't RFP them (and all the free stuff) is the core reason why GF is just so good at playing all three list varients (control, attrition, assassination) Now if you play Butcher 2 in WG theme (a theme which I think essentially you HAVE to play into GF) things shift. Now you can chew through stuff AND run your Models up for SacPawning. You have to still wheather 2 turns of Denny but you may be able to get it done, especially given enough WGI grunts.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 2, 2017 21:55:33 GMT
sand20goYes, I think you about summed it up. I think you *have* to play WGK if you were taking Butcher 2. Any front line caster, really. The whole shtick is going to be to remove as much as humanly possible and then survive and ARM 7 swing with whatever he has left. I think you'd need at least one unit of troopers whose whole job is to activate after B2, and then run to surround him in "I'll take the bullet for you" formation. I'd probably bring a Gun Carriage to have long range shots which you're going to try and land on the long gunners. It'd be a fun-as-hell matchup to play. (And if Butcher's focus stat was d3+4 I'd probably even play him...maybe a lot.)
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Post by Netherby on Aug 3, 2017 7:57:22 GMT
If they just made B2 have 6 focus, he would be fixed Also the Ghost Pirates aren't low power. At the very least they will be hitting at power 14/13, that's the same as IFPs. Then you're probably not going to run them with a caster that doesn't have Parasite (and that's not a problem in Cryx). So they will be hitting at 17/16 against anything important. So a charging pirate does more damage than an Uhlan per model. Of course if it's a Deny feat turn then you are looking at power 19/18 hits from each pirate. Now they are hitting as hard as a heavy warjack!
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