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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 14, 2017 23:10:32 GMT
As the title suggests, is the Slayer Chassis (and by that I mean the Slayer, Reaper, and Corrupter) worth it? I can't remember the last time I included any of those models in a list. What has your experience been?
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Post by tesoe on Jun 14, 2017 23:53:02 GMT
I haven't had the opportunity to play much Cryx in MK3. In MK2 the big problem was that it's arms are relatively easy to cripple. And once that happens it's useless.
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Post by heckler on Jun 15, 2017 1:27:42 GMT
The truth is that for the terrible armor of 17, Def13 isn't enough protection. There is an abundance of MAT/RAT7 models in the game that hit 13 trivially, let along boostable models.
I could perhaps see a reason to include a corruptor because it can do things no other model really can; but even then, what it can accomplish is simply cute rather than good.
The problem is that the chassis is touted as a beatstick/combat class of models but they are not particularly adept to this role with low boxes, low ARM, Low P+S and no real rules to increase survivability. PP has had the chance to re-evaluate their stats/rules/etc on several occasions but they seem to nudge them here or there with tiny bumps that never amount to the chassis being effective (In mk1, open fists on jacks were just straight Str as P+S except for helljacks; in Mk2, open fists gained like 3 POW but helljacks didn't really see a noteworthy boost. In effect, the open fists of other factions hit almost as hard as those for Cryx which is the slayer's only weapon.). Honestly, the whole chassis just needs to be retooled from scratch rather than just changing one thing here or there, to be made effective.
The obvious argument would be that they are too points intensive, but given spammability has been a problem in recent history I feel that this isn't feasible (except for the corruptor, which is way too many points).
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Post by tesoe on Jun 15, 2017 2:11:51 GMT
I think just giving it the carapace rule would go a long way to help the chassis.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605 
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Post by Deller on Jun 15, 2017 2:22:25 GMT
I either spam the Slayer chassis in 6+ numbers with a jack caster like Venethrax or I leave it on the shelf. They're just too fragile in small numbers to justify spending 10-16 points on especially considering how much better the Seether chassis is. Personally no, they're not worth it. The best thing you can do with a slayer kit is turn it into Erebus if you're playing Scaverous or out of theme Terminus/Asphyxious3.
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walden
Junior Strategist
Posts: 136
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Post by walden on Jun 15, 2017 5:32:04 GMT
Only list I've had success with the slayer is with cryxchev (venethrax) spamming 5 of them and a ton of Ripjaws. Other then that no. I don't think they get their points back. Maybe if they hit harder etc etc. I don't know.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 15, 2017 6:35:58 GMT
Like most people I don't use it very much except when doing jack spam. Reapers and Corruptors have some utility that sometimes make them worth it, but I usually reach for a Seether chassis or even a crab jack. The Seether is even less survivable than the Slayer, but at least it hits hard and is scary.
I actually feel like all the bipedal jacks (yes, even most of the characters) could stand to gain 1 POW or STR and 1 DEF. As others have said, DEF 13 is usually not enough to protect you. It's pretty much impossible to implement without severe rebalancing and testing though, so I don't see it happening any time soon.
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Post by tiberius on Jun 15, 2017 10:49:17 GMT
Of the three of them, the reaper is still very useful as a reach jack with drag shenanigans. It threat extends for your force and helps you piece trade favorably. Of course, it still suffers from super fragile arms, then then again, I rarely face guns in my meta so it isn't usually a problem.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jun 15, 2017 17:20:24 GMT
None of these 'jacks are tanks, but they are good for bait and good heaping a bunch of damage onto particular targets (especially if you can get them to move faster). They really need to be working with debuffs, and that does work well with the high number of attacks they have. Glass cannons for sure.
If you're going to build one I would recommend the Reaper - drag is very useful. It works well with Parasite / Mortality 'casters, Tune Up under Mortenabra, etc. If you play Banes (or a 'caster that can protect Banes), you can do kind of dumb things with positioning so that you drag your target into their 1" dark shroud range as well, stacked with Parasite that's putting the Reaper at effectively P+S 21 with 2-3 melee swings. Also, 2" melee makes it one of the furthest threating helljacks in the faction, even if you don't like drag (and many people seem to not like it).
The Corrupter specifically helps Skarre, by being able to heal her (potentially).
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Post by tarviche on Jun 16, 2017 2:38:32 GMT
What makes other 10ish-point jacks so good (maybe too good!) is the combination of boxes and ARM at that price. Slayers are just below that durability curve and have middling defense, so they're threatened by almost any attack and trivially removed by high-POW attacks. That means they just aren't able to produce the same volume of attacks and damage (or threaten as much of the board over time) throughout most games. This is especially a problem because, as you say, those arms get shot off a lot.
Their damage output is decent, and with Parasite a single Slayer has a decent chance of destroying even a Khador jack. They are extremely fast for a heavy, especially in a faction with lots of Ghost Walk. So if they get there, they can often do 10 points of work, especially if you can successfully screen them from retaliation.
I think Slayers do work, but only with casters who can deliver them and debuff ARM. That is actually a fairly limited list, especially considering True Sight and Eyeless Sight ignoring stealth. I think the Coven can really make Slayers work in the most matchups, though Goreshade1, Agathia, Lich3, Skarre2, and to some extent Skarre1 can run them against non-Legion/Sloan lists. With sheer volume of bodies, Slayer spam seems to work with Venethrax (against Hordes), Lich3, and Mortenebra1 (though she really wants some debuffs).
I honestly haven't tried using a large number of Brutes to soak shots on the way in but I suspect it's too expensive a delivery method.
Reapers have their place for sure, because threat extension is so valuable. Corruptors seem quite overpriced; drop them to 14 and suddenly I think they compete meaningfully with the new Desecrator.
Seethers are excellent jacks in terms of damage output and I almost always upgrade to one if I can spare 3 points. Again, they need delivery, but they do substantially more damage with a load of focus (and work so well with an ILO).
I think the Slayer chassis could use a small buff instead of a complete rework; off the top of my head, one or two of the following:
-two more boxes so they have a damage grid in line with other comparably priced heavies.
-DEF 14 so their defense is meaningful (Seethers shouldn't have lower DEF either, and if they were at 14 I'd be okay with a point increase even)
-Increase the horns to a meaningful damage level, like 14 or 15.
-Rearranged system boxes to make their arms harder to shoot off. This is surprisingly valuable, as one sees when playing Cankerworm or the Shrike/Scavenger.
I don't think they should have Carapace. That seems like territory for a crabjack, maybe a cheap melee crabjack in the future.
I imagine Cryx jacks might get a look in some future CID cycle, but the faction is much more infantry-focused so that's not the priority. Maybe when we get a jack theme in the future (please!)
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 16, 2017 6:28:07 GMT
I think the Slayer chassis could use a small buff instead of a complete rework; off the top of my head, one or two of the following: -two more boxes so they have a damage grid in line with other comparably priced heavies. -DEF 14 so their defense is meaningful (Seethers shouldn't have lower DEF either, and if they were at 14 I'd be okay with a point increase even) -Increase the horns to a meaningful damage level, like 14 or 15. -Rearranged system boxes to make their arms harder to shoot off. This is surprisingly valuable, as one sees when playing Cankerworm or the Shrike/Scavenger. I don't think they should have Carapace. That seems like territory for a crabjack, maybe a cheap melee crabjack in the future. I imagine Cryx jacks might get a look in some future CID cycle, but the faction is much more infantry-focused so that's not the priority. Maybe when we get a jack theme in the future (please!) Like I said above, I agree and they could probably do with an extra POW (possibly STR to not push Combo-Strike over the top) in general instead of just better Tusks. I always think back to MK1 when Seethers actually were DEF 14 (higher than the Slayers) and jacks in general actually had less MAT back then. Then they lost a DEF every edition while the competition gained MAT. Poor Seethers. I'm afraid that there is so much in the game that could do with a good CID cycle. Most of our infantry is now decent, when the Bane errata hits, but there are still some that underperform, mostly the medium based ones, and most of our jacks could actually use a look in general. But we're not the only faction that suffers from this and I'm afraid PP just won't have time to rebalance everything, which is a real shame. |
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Post by tarviche on Jun 16, 2017 15:44:09 GMT
Agreed, it's a little worrisome that even the stronger factions have legitimate complaints about useless or redundant models.
It seems kind of inevitable as a consequence of the model-driven wargame business, I think. There are just too many factions and models to balance before a new edition comes out. I'd like it if they stuck with this CID tactic for a few years and tried to balance the game in a dedicated fashion rather than rebooting it again, and maybe they will!
But they're also churning out new models at a high rate because that's how they make money (new Trenchers, new Trolls), and that means they won't or can't stop when the game is healthy. On the other hand, those releases aren't really imminent, I suppose.
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 16, 2017 17:36:01 GMT
I feel like, eventually, PP will have to adopt some sort of "Standard" (see Magic the Gathering) style system for competitive play so they aren't crushed under the weight of their own release schedule.
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Post by heckler on Jun 17, 2017 0:15:44 GMT
phasing out minis based on a timeframe is ridiculous.
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 17, 2017 3:59:35 GMT
phasing out minis based on a timeframe is ridiculous. Why? |
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