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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 20:22:00 GMT
I have at least 1 of everything in faction, sans a few stragglers I have yet to get.
These are one of them. And I don't wanna buy shelf warmers. But to me they just look kinda...Meh? They pale in comparison to even the nerfed stormlances, and I have had them used AGAINST me for very mediocre and sub par effect.
They are very survivable (When together), but only really get 1 good hit before being completly wimpy murder fodder.
Not sure that's worth 20 Points. Or as an EXCEPTIONALLY expensive unit. Not saying they should be more powerful because their expensive, but if their expensive Id at least like allot of usage out of them.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Jun 14, 2017 20:34:26 GMT
I've always liked running them. And that's the full package including Markov
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Jun 14, 2017 20:45:35 GMT
By themselves yes, they are meh. But that's the story for the majority of infantry in this game. They have some good synergies with a lot of casters. Boosting to hit on the charge is fantastic since we don't have a lot of good mat fixers in faction. Add in the crit knockdown for a nice bonus. Off the top of my head casters that can do work with uhlans are both irusks (battlelust), Sorcha2 (feat is bonkers with them and she can put iron flesh on), Strakhov1 (17 inch threat under feat, can keep them far back and safe from shooting and rebuke, then come from downtown. Also occultation cav is hilarious to me), Strakhov2 (quicken and feat for spd 10 def 14 vs shooting arm 22 uhlans) Kozlov (fury and his feat like them), and Vlad 2 (hand of fate super uhlans are disgusting) and maybe even Zerkova 1 and Vlad 3 since they can give them parry and with markov you can do sideways janky charges.
I think this just highlights how ridiculously good storm lances are. Uhlans aren't that bad at all but when your top dog cav is as good as lances are it's easy to assume uhlans suck.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 20:50:15 GMT
I think this just highlights how ridiculously good storm lances are. Uhlans aren't that bad at all but when your top dog cav is as good as lances are it's easy to assume uhlans suck. No not so much even that. Like right that a +1 die to a damage roll is neat and all, but I get much better collective damage output from Iron fangs. Its thats ONE charge. Is that ONE charge worthwhile for 4 points per 16 Pow charges?
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Post by tesoe on Jun 14, 2017 21:22:57 GMT
Basically anytime I consider bringing MoWs I remember Uhlans will do the job better.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 21:25:32 GMT
Basically anytime I consider bringing MoWs I remember Uhlans will do the job better. Survive? Damage? At least the Shocktroopers. The Uhlans still suffer from "Hit once then die" syndrome.
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Jun 14, 2017 21:45:47 GMT
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you mean a full unit of IFP will collectively do more damage than a full unit of uhlans? I mean it's true if you just compare average damage rolls side by side. But that's assuming a lot of factors. I mean against arm 20 a full unit of IFP on average charge damage rolls would do 33 points of damage where as a full unit of Uhlans would only do 30. However is it realistic you can get 11 pikemen on to one target? It's far more likely you'll only be able to get 3-4 models on one target. 3 uhlans greatly out damage 3 pikeman. But again that's an incredibly simplistic way of comparing two infantry units. Like I said there are a lot of other things to take into consideration like different threat ranges, boosted attack rolls reducing miss', differing arm values, boxes. You really can't pare it down to just damage.
Is a higher pow on 1 charge worth 4 points? Sometimes it is. Warmachine can very much be a game of swing turns and synergies. Yea ifp collectively do more damage but if that damage is spread out and doesn't kill or cripple what you're hitting, you're boned when they counter attack on their next turn. Depending on the situation I'd rather have the higher pow charge on fewer models that I know I can focus and maim their important pieces with.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 21:52:13 GMT
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I had them used against me and they just did not do enough damage for the cost PERIOD. Iron Fangs I could at leats do more damage longterm.
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Jun 14, 2017 22:02:38 GMT
What kind of match ups are you dealing with? I find that surprising as IFP die pretty easily and lose a lot of effectiveness as the unit dwindles. It's usually been my experience that as the game goes on IFP become more of a tarpit than damage dealers. Outside of strak2 though where in theme I can get a crap ton of IFP to layer and keep alive to keep their combat effectiveness up.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 22:05:59 GMT
What kind of match ups are you dealing with? I find that surprising as IFP die pretty easily and lose a lot of effectiveness as the unit dwindles. I play them behind a unit of MOW. The MOW actually threaten a solid amount on their own, and do good damage, and once the enemy finally chews through them, then my iron fangs zap up forward almost completely intact. Then after that I have the Conqest. So its layers apon layers of different but still very strong threats.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 14, 2017 23:05:17 GMT
Uhlans are bad, really? They are the best melee infantry in faction. Cavalry rules make everything good.
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Jun 14, 2017 23:51:56 GMT
I play them behind a unit of MOW. The MOW actually threaten a solid amount on their own, and do good damage, and once the enemy finally chews through them, then my iron fangs zap up forward almost completely intact. Then after that I have the Conqest. So its layers apon layers of different but still very strong threats. That kind of high arm backed by boxes would be tough on unbuffed uhlans. It'd also be just as tough against unbuffed pikemen. Frankly it's a tough question for a lot of things in the game. I don't know if it's an indication that uhlans are bad so much as that kind of list asks a question, do you have a good damage buff on your support/caster? Flip it around and say your opponent had pikemen instead of uhlans. They would still be in the same boat as it's quite possible the MoW survive the pikeman charge unless you can get 4 pikeman onto one MoW.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 15, 2017 2:32:46 GMT
You guys REALLY need to charge a unit of Uhlans under last stand into something. Your world will rock. You will come home to your significant other with a smile on your face and a bounce in your step. It really will alter your impact on your much maligned Horses.
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Post by Netherby on Jun 15, 2017 4:28:27 GMT
Alright, so Uhlans are in the same point bracket as your full pikemen, dragons and assassins. So how do they compare against them?
Uhlans have a bunch of extra rules and stats. The notable interactions are boosted attack roles on the critical knock down lance attacks and an addition crit k/d on the mount. Read: They are almost certainly going to knock down their target. They are also Steady with higher base Arm and much greater threat range. They don't actually completely suck when not charging, you still get two attacks per model and the mount is only 1 PoW less than a pikeman.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 15, 2017 5:02:36 GMT
Uhlans provide a few things:
(1) Steady - against some lists this can be incredibly useful as an anti-assassination tool. Of course other models can provide that too (MoW ST + Officer), but it's nice to have. I've enjoyed Kozlov with MoW ST, Uhlans and Chosen Ground - knockdown tech becomes worthless.
(2) Native pathfinder (of sorts) - again, often very useful. This is something Stormlances don't get, and can struggle with. Often it is effectively a speed buff compared to some other cavalry.
(3) Speed - they are a relatively fast melee option which hits hard. It's easy to discount that, but it gives them an important edge against things like Iron Fangs. Speed sometimes benefits from two minimum units around the flanks, rather than one large one. There's no price premium for min units for Uhlans, so this isn't a major issue.
(4) Cav rules of boosted attack rolls. This can be golden. It gives a useful means to take out high-DEF models in melee. Combine with critical knockdown and a charging Uhlan has a decent chance of hitting and knocking down a caster, leaving them open to attacks from other models too.
The thing about cavalry is that getting a single glorious charge out of them is unlikely to be that rewarding. You really need to get more work out of them. They are not worth using to initiate piece trading. Reform comes in handy in getting more out of them. With Uhlans, you can charge, then reform backwards, into B2B to up survivability. The aim here is to be out of threat range of retaliation. Works well on the flanks. Alternatively, charge, then reform closer/into the enemy lines, again in B2B. Without a charge bonus, many warrior models will struggle to do much damage against them. Works really well with Zerkova1, who can exploit Ghost Walk to unjam them.
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