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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 13, 2017 21:28:29 GMT
Hey All,
Sort of similar to my thread about the Teraph, I wanted to take a moment to discuss Legion's many infantry options. I know beast bricks and flying circuses are all the rage right now (See Oracles of Annihilation) but I was wondering if anyone was having any success with more infantry heavy lists (See Kallus 1 Blightbringer swarm or Ogrun Mountain under Thags 1).
For starters, here's a silly Lylyth 1 gunline that I've piloted with some success.
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Lylyth 1) Lylyth, Herald of Everblight [+30]
- Naga Nightlurker [8]
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11]
- Ravagore [19]
- Ravagore [19]
- Succubus [4]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
The Forsaken [4]
Blackfrost Shard [9]
Blighted Nyss Archers (max) [13]
- Blighted Nyss Archer Officer & Ammo Porter [5]
Blighted Nyss Raptors (min) [11]
Edit: Spelling
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Post by rhonlore on Jun 13, 2017 21:46:45 GMT
This is an interesting list. I personally think Lylyth1 is reasonably powerful. Her three spells are all reasonably good, but she doesn't really benefit from our themes right now as she has no friendly upkeeps, Ravens can't take Ravagores and Children of the Dragon is ... well... Children of the Dragon. I like your list a lot, as it is very similar to one I played a couple months back and I enjoyed significantly. Here is mine... | Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Lylyth 1) Lylyth, Herald of Everblight [+30][*]Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11]
[*]Raek [8]
[*]Ravagore [19]
[*]Ravagore [19]
[*]Seraph [14]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Strider Deathstalker [4]
Blackfrost Shard [9]
Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18]
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I have yet to try the Archers out, though I am considering them soon... CRA and ROF2 with the UA might be a good deal in a list somewhere. |
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 13, 2017 21:57:42 GMT
The problem I've had with archers is they're not very accurate unless you cra. They're only rat 5. Even with banes and ghost pirates getting more popular they need 7 or 8 to hit those and then they're only pow 10. They might be playable if I didn't have to bunch them up around the ammo porter to get that 2nd shot. That would mean theyd be a decent unit at using cra to pick off stragglers and unengaged models while still having a decent number of shots. But they just die to aoe and sprays if they bunch up.
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 13, 2017 22:01:35 GMT
The problem I've had with archers is they're not very accurate unless you cra. They're only rat 5. Even with banes and ghost pirates getting more popular they need 7 or 8 to hit those and then they're only pow 10. They might be playable if I didn't have to bunch them up around the ammo porter to get that 2nd shot. That would mean theyd be a decent unit at using cra to pick off stragglers and unengaged models while still having a decent number of shots. But they just die to aoe and sprays if they bunch up. Lylyth fixes their RAT problem on feat turn, so you really need to get the most out of them on that initial volley. That said, I could see them having some game with Kryssa of all people because of the reposition upkeep she has. |
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 13, 2017 22:12:31 GMT
Even when they hit a model solo they're only pow 10. Lylyth2 has honestly been best for me because of pin cushion and her feat. Even then though I could bring two units of basic scouts for the same points and they get stealth, one more rat, 2 more defense, pathfinder, advance deploy, and 2 more models or I could bring a unit of raptors instead.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288 
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Post by Whiskie on Jun 13, 2017 22:20:34 GMT
My issue with Legion infantry is that most of them are on the expensive side, often lack Pathfinder and die horribly to ranged attacks.
Archers and Striders are interesting in their ways but don't see through Stealth which is super common in lists that people plan to play into opponents with guns.
Swordsmen hit hard but will rarely survive to make contact with the opponent because they don't have Stealth.
Hex Hunters are good but rely on a caster to give them Stealth so they can be delivered.
Grotesque Raiders are good but die horribly to guns unless you give them an Assassin who can be picked off plus their ARM is so bad that even blast damage kills them easily. Banshees have similar problems except they have Force Barrier but also deal much less damage in melee.
Warspears and Warmongers are just bad right now they get torn to shreds by guns since they lost boxes since MK2.
Blightblades are legitimately good, I like that unit. Same with Raptors.
The biggest problem with most of these choices is that by far our most competitive theme option doesn't allow them. Children of the Dragon is in my opinion at least total trash in terms of competitive play because the theme doesn't let you take quality warbeasts to support the infantry. Ravens of War has a similar issue in that battlegroups are restricted in such a way that you struggle to support your infantry adequately except for Fyanna2 who loves both flying beasts and skirmishing infantry - it just so happens that she's far better off in Oracles than Ravens.
PP said that they wanted us to play more infantry this edition and promised that we'd have better units to give us incentive to not play beasts all the time but most of our infantry opens are too difficult and expensive to deliver and are restricted by themes.
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 13, 2017 22:21:37 GMT
The initial list was really just an example to get the conversation started. If I were to optimize the list I think It would end up with something like this:
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Lylyth 1) Lylyth, Herald of Everblight [+30]
- Naga Nightlurker [8]
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11]
- Ravagore [19]
- Ravagore [19]
- Succubus [4]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Blackfrost Shard [9]
Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18]
Strider Scouts [9]
- Strider Scout Officer & Musician [4]
Edit: Changed Spell Martyr to Chef
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 13, 2017 22:32:22 GMT
When I first started Legion I ran Lylyth1 with farrow brigands. Her feat won't work on them but everything else will. If you put parasite on their prey target you're looking at pow 17 gun shots followed by pow 15 charges. It's preeeety good.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 13, 2017 22:55:40 GMT
I still have to run infantry heavy in everything but Abby2. I just hate taking 11 points of fury management to even get things working and I don't particularly care for any theme, including oracles. But that doesn't mean I enjoy having to use our infantry. I especially don't like them dying reliably to single digit pow damage rolls.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 13, 2017 23:00:47 GMT
I still have to run infantry heavy in everything but Abby2. I just hate taking 11 points of fury management to even get things working and I don't particularly care for any theme, including oracles. But that doesn't mean I enjoy having to use our infantry. I especially don't like them dying reliably to single digit pow damage rolls. Then don't take 11 points of fury management. Learn to use frenzies for fury management. It's a technique I picked up playing minions. I usually only take forsaken when they're free. Swamp chefs and hellmouths tentacles make a nice fury management out of theme too. |
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 13, 2017 23:06:14 GMT
Then don't take 11 points of fury management. Learn to use frenzies for fury management. It's a technique I picked up playing minions. I usually only take forsaken when they're free. Swamp chefs and hellmouths tentacles make a nice fury management out of theme too. That's actually a really interesting concept I hadn't considered too carefully. Would you mind going in to that in more detail? |
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 13, 2017 23:07:29 GMT
When I first started Legion I ran Lylyth1 with farrow brigands. Her feat won't work on them but everything else will. If you put parasite on their prey target you're looking at pow 17 gun shots followed by pow 15 charges. It's preeeety good. Or pow 19 and pow 17 if you get a kiss off first. Seems ok.  |
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 13, 2017 23:29:16 GMT
Then don't take 11 points of fury management. Learn to use frenzies for fury management. It's a technique I picked up playing minions. I usually only take forsaken when they're free. Swamp chefs and hellmouths tentacles make a nice fury management out of theme too. That's actually a really interesting concept I hadn't considered too carefully. Would you mind going in to that in more detail? The main idea is to keep in mind which beasts hurt the least when they frenzy. It's annoying if a Naga frenzies but you're bringing him for the animus anyway and the Warlock can still cast that. It's annoying if your angelius frenzies but if he charged in last turn and is full on fury then just be happy he survived and attacked an enemy next to him. A ravagore on the other hand really hurts when it frenzies because you lose the activation and he'll probably punch one of your guys. So if I have a fury 6 warlock then I don't mind running my melee heavies or my support lights too hot as long as I can take the fury off my ranged threats. Legion also has pretty decent thresholds so you can leave a fury or two on the beast and still have only a 50% of frenzy. The hellmouth/swamp chef combo is cool because the tentacle comes back in melee and then gets eaten in control phase. So for one point and a hellmouth tentacle you can remove all the fury from a beast. Obviously only works out of theme, but in theme I can bring free forsaken instead. |
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Post by DakRamsin on Jun 14, 2017 0:13:48 GMT
That's actually a really interesting concept I hadn't considered too carefully. Would you mind going in to that in more detail? The main idea is to keep in mind which beasts hurt the least when they frenzy. It's annoying if a Naga frenzies but you're bringing him for the animus anyway and the Warlock can still cast that. It's annoying if your angelius frenzies but if he charged in last turn and is full on fury then just be happy he survived and attacked an enemy next to him. A ravagore on the other hand really hurts when it frenzies because you lose the activation and he'll probably punch one of your guys. So if I have a fury 6 warlock then I don't mind running my melee heavies or my support lights too hot as long as I can take the fury off my ranged threats. Legion also has pretty decent thresholds so you can leave a fury or two on the beast and still have only a 50% of frenzy. The hellmouth/swamp chef combo is cool because the tentacle comes back in melee and then gets eaten in control phase. So for one point and a hellmouth tentacle you can remove all the fury from a beast. Obviously only works out of theme, but in theme I can bring free forsaken instead. I guess that poses an interesting list building question that basically boils down to how many 'points' you think a frenzied beast is worth, if that makes sense. In theory you can run a list with zero fury management and put those savings towards combat models, but how much does a lost activation really cost you? It's a very complex question and I'm not really sure how I'd go about answering it to be honest. |
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Post by neutralyze on Jun 14, 2017 23:49:55 GMT
If you go all in and kill enough your next frenY won't matter as much.
Know what you're trading. Know when you send something in that it's likely to die and write it off.
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