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Post by WolfsSOL on Jul 7, 2017 6:51:06 GMT
I think adding flame busy back on to some of our infantry might help a bit worth the spreading of fire problem. Hell is be happy to see it put back on paladins, it would help them be more effective vs infantry seeing as they only have a single attack.
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Post by dazzla on Jul 7, 2017 11:13:35 GMT
I hope to see less fire damage in Menoth. Fire is a liability. It may be just the opponents I face (often Legion - Kallus 2) but fire immunity just wrecks my day.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 13:12:40 GMT
I hope to see less fire damage in Menoth. Fire is a liability. It may be just the opponents I face (often Legion - Kallus 2) but fire immunity just wrecks my day. Two lists man ... two lists. Have one with all the fire toys and then one Exemplar Interdiction and you'll be laughing.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 7, 2017 13:36:35 GMT
I hope to see less fire damage in Menoth. Fire is a liability. It may be just the opponents I face (often Legion - Kallus 2) but fire immunity just wrecks my day. I want the purifier to turn off fire immunity within 8 inches. If we have this much fire, we MUST get a workaround to it or it'll never quite measure up.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Jul 7, 2017 15:11:05 GMT
I want the purifier to turn off fire immunity within 8 inches. If we have this much fire, we MUST get a workaround to it or it'll never quite measure up.
I really like this idea. I'm sure it would need some tweaking, but we really need some way around Fire immunity. I'd argue that our Holy Flame should ignore fire immunity anyway. On the other hand, I don't want to break the game either.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 7, 2017 16:54:17 GMT
I hope to see less fire damage in Menoth. Fire a liability. It may bsst the opponents I face (often Legion - Kallus 2) but fire immunity just wrecks my day. I want the purifier to turn off fire immunity within 8 inches. If we have this much fire, we MUST get a workaround to it or it'll never quite measure up. I was seriously hoping feora3 would have something that turned off enemy fire immunity. We need a caster who can turn off fire immunity, and then also some sort of reliable fairly cheap fire damage buff. Purifier gaining HoJs aura would work. Cygnar gets the stupid firefly. We should have something similar.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 7, 2017 17:00:02 GMT
I disawhat. Oil would be fine without many limitations. It's about time the Fire faction actually could make fire do work again. Deliverers could be a good delivery platform. It would give them a purpose. Skyhammer Rocket: Range 16, Pow 10, AOE- Skyhammer Rocket Ammo: Choose 1 of the three ammo types below when an attack is made with this weapon. Shaped Charge: Increase the pow of this attack to 14 and gain Brutal Damage. This type of attack may not use the CRA rule. Oil Bomb: This attack does not cause any damage and gains Inaccurate. This attack becomes AOE3. Models hit by this attack gain Oil for 1 round. High Explosive: This attack becomes AOE3 and gains High Explosive(10) and Inaccurate. So Oil bomb and the High Explosive attack would be inaccurate. The direct hit attack would not. This would give Deliverers a nice niche as well as some toolbox ability. And no massive CRA laser beam of death, but their basic rockets could do some damage to a heavy when aimed and using the Shaped Charge. So you looked at Rocketeers, and decided they needed +2" range, +2 POW, and they should also be 7pts cheaper than they would be if you could take them in a unit of 10 with no Rifle tax? In a faction with access to Hand of Fate, the Covenant of Menoth (to give them continuous fire), Stealth removal, and Purification or a Blessed aura on a warjack? Man, no wonder you're pessimistic about the faction if this is what you consider balanced. Never said what i came up with was perfect. It would need tweaking, havent touched point cost or anything else. But yes. If you actually look at what other factions have, this is up there with it. Deliverers need a niche. Being a ranged support unit is what we lack, it would give them a purpose beyond being worthless shelfwarmers.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 7, 2017 17:05:14 GMT
If the max unit where 25 points I'd still take it for Rat 7 (aimed) Rng 16 Pow 14 Brutal Damage shots.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 7, 2017 17:07:53 GMT
If we had a way to ignore or remove fire immunity people would complain the steakth.... i mean fire immunity is too binary and that it should be more relevant
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 7, 2017 18:23:49 GMT
If we had a way to ignore or remove fire immunity people would complain the steakth.... i mean fire immunity is too binary and that it should be more relevant So is stealth, cloud effects, magical weaponry, and a small host of other things. I've made the same complaint, to PP directly no less, but this is the game we've got.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 18:41:08 GMT
I once had this piece of game design explained to me as a very slippery slope.
Design ability A Design ability B to counter A Design ability C to support A in countering B Design ability D to support B in countering C's ability to support A ect... and then it ends with an old woman swallowing a horse I guess.
Thing is Fire Immunity is already ability B. This is the level at which the counter ability abilities should stop since if you go deeper abilities start to be very niche and difficult to cost. In addition abilities should have counters that can't be re-countered.
Stealth is a good example. Its a defensive modifier plain and simple. There are now a plethora of ability B's that counter that defensive mechanism. As such armies and units can somewhat rely on stealth for shooting defense. Imagine if you could take a solo that turned on SUPER STEALTH for a model or unit that already has stealth. SUPER STEALTH can't be seen by eyeless sight or mage sight or any of the other stealth counters but now they must all be listed on the card. Things go down hill fast.
So for that reason I'm against any design that works to "turn off" fire immunity. Let it be a thing and work around it with smart play. Now better abilities that enhance our interaction with fire? Sign me up. There are excellent examples of how this can be done on Khallus, Horgle and the Hand of Judgement. More of that please!
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 7, 2017 18:43:23 GMT
Yeah, in this case we are looking at something like: Design Ability A Design Ability B in countering A Design ability C to support A against Not-B so it remains viable despite the existence of B
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Post by paradox on Jul 7, 2017 18:45:17 GMT
I once had this piece of game design explained to me as a very slippery slope. Design ability A Design ability B to counter A Design ability C to support A in countering B Design ability D to support B in countering C's ability to support A ect... and then it ends with an old woman swallowing a horse I guess. Thing is Fire Immunity is already ability B. This is the level at which the counter ability abilities should stop since if you go deeper abilities start to be very niche and difficult to cost. In addition abilities should have counters that can't be re-countered. Stealth is a good example. Its a defensive modifier plain and simple. There are now a plethora of ability B's that counter that defensive mechanism. As such armies and units can somewhat rely on stealth for shooting defense. Imagine if you could take a solo that turned on SUPER STEALTH for a model or unit that already has stealth. SUPER STEALTH can't be seen by eyeless sight or mage sight or any of the other stealth counters but now they must all be listed on the card. Things go down hill fast. So for that reason I'm against any design that works to "turn off" fire immunity. Let it be a thing and work around it with smart play. Now better abilities that enhance our interaction with fire? Sign me up. There are excellent examples of how this can be done on Khallus, Horgle and the Hand of Judgement. More of that please! "Super Stealth" existed in MKI. It was called Invisibility. It went away in MKII.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 19:35:35 GMT
I once had this piece of game design explained to me as a very slippery slope. Design ability A Design ability B to counter A Design ability C to support A in countering B Design ability D to support B in countering C's ability to support A ect... and then it ends with an old woman swallowing a horse I guess. Thing is Fire Immunity is already ability B. This is the level at which the counter ability abilities should stop since if you go deeper abilities start to be very niche and difficult to cost. In addition abilities should have counters that can't be re-countered. Stealth is a good example. Its a defensive modifier plain and simple. There are now a plethora of ability B's that counter that defensive mechanism. As such armies and units can somewhat rely on stealth for shooting defense. Imagine if you could take a solo that turned on SUPER STEALTH for a model or unit that already has stealth. SUPER STEALTH can't be seen by eyeless sight or mage sight or any of the other stealth counters but now they must all be listed on the card. Things go down hill fast. So for that reason I'm against any design that works to "turn off" fire immunity. Let it be a thing and work around it with smart play. Now better abilities that enhance our interaction with fire? Sign me up. There are excellent examples of how this can be done on Khallus, Horgle and the Hand of Judgement. More of that please! "Super Stealth" existed in MKI. It was called Invisibility. It went away in MKII. Probably for very good reasons but was it an actual upgrade to stealth models or was it its own separate ability?
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 7, 2017 19:37:39 GMT
Yeah, in this case we are looking at something like: Design Ability A Design Ability B in countering A Design ability C to support A against Not-B so it remains viable despite the existence of B Then the inclusion of "against Not-B so it remains viable despite the existence of B" is superfluous and the opinion that protectorate fire abilities aren't viable is just that an opinion. So C is just a buff or interaction ability.
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