Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 4, 2017 17:45:17 GMT
I remeber checking some time ago, when I read those opinions about no fire in the Protectorate. IRRC only one out of all our casters doesn't have at least one fire realted spell or ability (Thyra?). Sounds like a theme to me...
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Post by WantonRanger on Jul 4, 2017 22:39:30 GMT
Well Fire should be our theme but a list of things in Menoth related to fire doesn't make it an effective tactic... I meant more what do we do that kills things good but as people say... every army is so broad now that it's pretty hard to pigeonhole a tactic.
Cleansers are pretty sweet especially with pSevy and a VoJ >> it's about as fiery as it comes.
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Post by WantonRanger on Jul 4, 2017 22:41:44 GMT
I think you would be hard pressed to quote fire as our thing particularly as other factions do it better and it's a greatly minimised part of the game now... Which factions do you feel do it better? And in what way do you feel it's greatly diminished? The diminished bit is just how Fire is far less effective generally with a slew away from infantry... Who is our most effective death by fire caster?
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Post by paradox on Jul 4, 2017 23:33:09 GMT
Which factions do you feel do it better? And in what way do you feel it's greatly diminished? The diminished bit is just how Fire is far less effective generally with a slew away from infantry... Who is our most effective death by fire caster? RE dudespam, I agree it was that way. But honestly, Ive seen a marked uptick in dudespam lately with themes making them more appealing. Death by fire best? I say Feora1. But I may be biased. I love playing her, and she's pretty effective. Her death by fire is more force-wide. Killing dudez and solo handily, and chip damage into heavier stuff. With HoJ, POW14s can cripple aspects or systems, or eat a multi-wound dude. And you can feat for free charges. Then she has Wall of Fire and Blazing Effigy. And sprays. Tons of fire death there.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 5, 2017 0:56:19 GMT
depends on build. I'd probably say most effective fire caster over the course of the game is Feora1, while Malekus takes the cake for having one round of absolutely devastating fire (and then he tries to ride that to a win). Both are pretty fun.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 6, 2017 12:25:44 GMT
I remeber checking some time ago, when I read those opinions about no fire in the Protectorate. IRRC only one out of all our casters doesn't have at least one fire realted spell or ability (Thyra?). Sounds like a theme to me... The issue, I believe, is that while it is a "theme", it's really just kind of there. We make a ton of fires, but outside one warjack and two casters (Malekus, feora 2, and Hand of Judgement), nothing in the game actually, mechanically, changes as a result. Trolls have Horgle and fire eaters, Legion gets Kallus and Azrael, So they have about the same number of things that actually change what's going on based on fire. Whats more, those casters actually have the ability to actually make their models immune to their own fire: we do not. Furthermore, some of the things that actually cause fires are kind of randomly chosen. Our basic spear troops cause fires? OK, I guess....But then why can't the guardian's "flame pike"? The flamebringers do not bring flame. Both the crusader and reckoner melee weapons don't look like they'd light anything on fire. Exemplars stay away from the whole fire bollocks....except cinerators because reasons. Paladins do it....except vilmon and (sort of) Durst. So I think that's why some people don't really consider fire a theme of our faction. EDIT: death-by-fire is easily Feora 2. She can get the fire on the caster and keep it there until one of them dies, and she'll be ARM 19.
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Post by paradox on Jul 6, 2017 13:12:27 GMT
Feels like alot of stretching to claim "no fire theme to me. We cause fire. Alot. We have alot of fire-immunity. Neither of which are particularly random or unintuitive. Theme enough for me.
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Post by paradox on Jul 6, 2017 13:42:07 GMT
Fire-based or -causing weapons, abilities, or effects: 8 casters, both colossals, 11 jacks, 6 units, 7 solos, the BE. Fire-based spells: 15 casters, 1 solo. Fire-based feats: 8 Fire-immunity: 4 casters, 6 jacks, 2 units, the BE.
Our fire theme is based on causing fire, or fire-based effects. To a lesser, more focused extent, immunity. Modifying fire is, appropriately, the province of Feora, Malekus, and Feora's jack. We also have a strong spell-denial theme, which has always been part of the Protectorate. We have a buffs-based theme, and a brick-style theme of play in slow durability and recursion, or on-death benefits, reflecting holy zeal.
If you can't find faction themes, well....
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 6, 2017 14:03:41 GMT
The issue is actually that PP have said the opposite. In the faction insider for mk 3, there was not a word about a fire theme for PoM. By all means, while we cause a lot of it we seem to have 0 design intent on actually using it in any way, beyond the little that we already have.
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jul 6, 2017 15:30:07 GMT
Fire is defenitly a PoM thing. I just wish it added something rather than screw us over when facing fire immune stuff. I mean, sure, we have Hand of Judgement and Malekus, but that's 1 caster that's not that good and 1 expensive character jack.
I wish we had some sort of oil tossing unit, like the croaks.
Ryilan
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 6, 2017 15:57:09 GMT
I'd be both very excited, and highly cautious, about oil in Menoth. There'd have to be a substantial downside to balance it out.
My preference would be for it to be on a single-shot, low-RNG (like, 8") light jack. Allows for the complete destruction of a single target (Cleansers with Malekus feat and oil are doing POW12+4d6. That's taking down a colossal), but doesn't melt an entire army.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 6, 2017 16:00:28 GMT
I'd settle for just having HoJ's aura on something that isn't an 18 point character heavy
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 6, 2017 16:25:41 GMT
I'd be both very excited, and highly cautious, about oil in Menoth. There'd have to be a substantial downside to balance it out. My preference would be for it to be on a single-shot, low-RNG (like, 8") light jack. Allows for the complete destruction of a single target (Cleansers with Malekus feat and oil are doing POW12+4d6. That's taking down a colossal), but doesn't melt an entire army. That was actually my hope for the Purifier, back when everyone was speculating on what the third jack in the Devout/Dervish chassis was going to be. Heck, I'd take the Purifier losing flame trail and replacing it with oil-slick (everything in B2B with this model gains oil until your next turn). You'd still have to deliver it, but it would have a use.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 6, 2017 17:09:11 GMT
I remeber checking some time ago, when I read those opinions about no fire in the Protectorate. IRRC only one out of all our casters doesn't have at least one fire realted spell or ability (Thyra?). Sounds like a theme to me... When we say that, what we actually mean is that the fire stuff we have doesn't actually function all that well. There isn't much in the way of fire based synergy. Damage type fire is, in almost every situation, a liability. And the few cases where it's not aren't super strong. Other factions have better ways of making fire an asset. Horgol2 and Kallus are way better at making fire be an asset instead of a liability. It's our rightful theme which has been stolen and done better by other factions. And just because you have a firebolt doesn't mean you contribute to a "fire theme". It just means you have a crappy nuke that, unlike many crappy nukes, has a weakness because it has a damage type that means people can be immune to it. Damage type: Fire is 95% of the time a downside, or at best provides no benefit. We have exactly 2 things that buff fire damage. HoJ and Malakus's feat. All in all, our fire theme is pretty trash and lame. It needs to be better. All of our core themes need to be better because generally they suck. Fire is a downside most of the time. Denial has been made incredibly weak overall. And other factions now do jack support better than we do/did in the past. PP really needs to do an overhaul of our game mechanics back to how Protectorate was designed in mk1-2 because thats when there was both flavor and power in almost perfect amounts. Now we just have average power but with very little flavor.
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 6, 2017 17:18:44 GMT
I'd be both very excited, and highly cautious, about oil in Menoth. There'd have to be a substantial downside to balance it out. My preference would be for it to be on a single-shot, low-RNG (like, 8") light jack. Allows for the complete destruction of a single target (Cleansers with Malekus feat and oil are doing POW12+4d6. That's taking down a colossal), but doesn't melt an entire army. I disagree. Oil would be fine without many limitations. It's about time the Fire faction actually could make fire do work again. Deliverers could be a good delivery platform. It would give them a purpose. Skyhammer Rocket: Range 16, Pow 10, AOE- Skyhammer Rocket Ammo: Choose 1 of the three ammo types below when an attack is made with this weapon. Shaped Charge: Increase the pow of this attack to 14 and gain Brutal Damage. This type of attack may not use the CRA rule. Oil Bomb: This attack does not cause any damage and gains Inaccurate. This attack becomes AOE3. Models hit by this attack gain Oil for 1 round. High Explosive: This attack becomes AOE3 and gains High Explosive(10) and Inaccurate. So Oil bomb and the High Explosive attack would be inaccurate. The direct hit attack would not. This would give Deliverers a nice niche as well as some toolbox ability. And no massive CRA laser beam of death, but their basic rockets could do some damage to a heavy when aimed and using the Shaped Charge.
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