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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 4, 2017 12:30:20 GMT
Mage hunters can effortlessly remove the choir though. It's never as effortless as people think it is.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 4, 2017 16:07:03 GMT
Mage hunters can effortlessly remove the choir though. if they're alive next turn things get bad. Not really. I mean, they can, but it's not effortless, and will certainly result in a dead Mage Hunter unit. For example, if the Choir goes first, then the jacks can advance and end up 9" in front of the choir at the end of the turn, and still be in position to receive the choir buff next turn. Given that a large base is about 2" in diameter (going off memory here), a warjack with a 1" reach should either engage, or be close to engaging, a model 12" away from the choir member (2" reach will certainly engage). Given that MHSF has a range of 12", it's very possible to make it so that the MHSF cannot have range to the Choir without engaging the jacks. Now that was all in an ideal situation, stretching the distance between Choir and jack as far as possible. Most likely, some shots will get taken vs Choir, as it's difficult to perfectly protect them. But given that MHSF only ignores LOS for one turn, not all MHSF are likely to have a clear shot available, and given they have about a 40% chance of missing, it's not unreasonable to assume some Choir can survive.
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Post by Demeritus on Jun 4, 2017 16:19:42 GMT
Mage hunters can effortlessly remove the choir though. if they're alive next turn things get bad. Not quite so effortless. To shoot through models and terrain is now their mini feat (with the commander) as opposed to always on and doesn't ignore defensive bonuses like concealment/cover. While they can reasonably do this chances are you will be trading out the unit. If you bring Eiryss as their CA instead then you do not have that minifeat but they do have repo3 and that would be easier to defend against since they will need LoS.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 7, 2017 11:09:51 GMT
Mage hunters can effortlessly remove the choir though. if they're alive next turn things get bad. Not really. I mean, they can, but it's not effortless, and will certainly result in a dead Mage Hunter unit. Don't forget the Choir will also have Reposition 3 when in Creator's Might.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 7, 2017 17:06:09 GMT
Yeah, but Creators Might has some major issues so you won't always see it. Even with casters like Amon. It can often be better to go out of theme so you actually have some infantry.
I'm really bitter that other people's Jack themes still let them take infantry units.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 12, 2017 15:21:14 GMT
That is absolutely not how they normally play. Aside from the ability to boost, mentioned by Paradox, we have the wonderful Reckoner and its Flare. One of my standard lists is Sevvy1 who apart from Idrians has a Reckoner and a Redeemer under Tristan, with Kell to support. Against low DEF heavies I don't bother with boosting to hit if I can aim and use all Focus to boost damage. Even more experienced players are often suprised when I one-round their heavies at long range with basically a light and a solo. This is the Redeemer's strength, it works against all targets. For example boosted, aimed, (and possibly Flared) shots against DEF 14 are not unreliable considering you have 3 chances and against such targets I often don't need to boost damage that much (Warpwolves take damage at dice-2, annoying light cavalry like Flamebringers die on 5s). And finally I can divide my shots and when I want to boost both hit and damage and I am left without Focus, I can send the "surplus" unboosted shots into some infantry or solos hoping for favourable scatters. But those Blast Damage kills are definitely only a minor part of my Redeemer's performance. I am glad that people are able to use them successfully. Not for me, but if others are successful with them - great. To provide a real-game context to this I can describe examples of my two games from last weekend with Sevvy 1 Creator's Might gunline. Game 1 vs Circle 1st Redeemer salvo , 3 direct hits destroying a Shifting Stone, Efaarit Scout and damaging flared Loki 2nd a miss and scater and 2 direct hits for solid damage on Ghetorix 3rd finishing off Ghetorix Game 2 vs Skorne 1st salvo, 3 shots and two direct hits against Molik Karn in a forest (flare) Molik dies, 1 scatter 2nd salvo, 3 direct hits vs Bronzeback (flare), it dies 3rd salvo, as above vs a Gladiator +occasional kills on Paingvers b2b with beasts So, out of 18 shots in those 2 games every single one was fired with the intention of a direct hit, using different combinations of boosts for attack or damage rolls for maximum chance of success. All of those shots had at least 50% chance of a direct hit and most had much higher (like shooting Titans with Flare, Eye of Menoth and aiming)and as a result only two missed and caused inconsequential blast damage. Not a single shot was fired with the intention of catching things with lucky blast damage. The problem it caused in those games, was positioning, as I definitely wanted it aiming every turn. As a result it got in the way of other pieces, especially the Vessel of Judgement. It wasn't a major problem but I could think more about it's firing position in future games. As you can see my Redeemer is definitely a reliable hunter of heavies, not an unreliable anti-infantry barrage piece, as it is seen by many players.
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Post by WantonRanger on Jul 4, 2017 13:10:38 GMT
Just to try and resurrect this thread a little... bit has anyone got more of an idea what PP's design ethos was for Protectorate? I'm really struggling to work it out... past we have: 1) good Warcasters 2) Reasonable Jacks which require mandatory choir support 3) lots of infantry of variable effectiveness... Is there anything that binds us together as an army... like a faction theme? I just feel like we are kinda souless... and just a bunch of units put together underneath the same keyword.
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Post by Demeritus on Jul 4, 2017 13:26:17 GMT
That is part of what I created this thread for and there is a strong variance of opinion. I think I have made mine pretty well known so I won't rehash it in its entirety again but to answer simply, I feel like this faction doesn't have a strong theme because it has changed from edition to edition.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 4, 2017 13:47:25 GMT
I think no faction has a strong "game-mechanics" theme right now, because the factions have grown to the point where they are so huge and varied, they don't force you into some specific playstyle just because you chose them.
PoM is still a band of fire-loving religious fanatics, but can be played in a lot of different ways.
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 4, 2017 14:06:13 GMT
I think no faction has a strong "game-mechanics" theme right now, because the factions have grown to the point where they are so huge and varied, they don't force you into some specific playstyle just because you chose them. PoM is still a band of fire-loving religious fanatics, but can be played in a lot of different ways. Quoted for truth and this isn't a Protectorate specific issue. Players from every faction lament the loss of identity for their main faction. Seems like its a common theme for MKIII but it feels like its by design. The reason being that the theme forces bring strong emphasis on certain play styles. You can deffinitely see it in the protectorate. Guardians of the Temple: Fast cheap infantry with jacks providing the hitting power. Emphasis on keeping the support alive with girded and a strong fire theme. Exemplar Interdiction: Massed hard hitting troops with jacks providing the support and ranged options but able to do damage with blessed weapons. Emphasis on the holy crusader fluff. Creator's Might: A showcase of our excellent jack support. Allows the support to do their job and stay safe with reposition 3". Also allows crowded backfield management. Jack spam is common across warmachine and this is our version of it. This theme also plays strongly into the denial theme with the inclusion of the book and how the choir interacts with the jacks. When your entire list is spell immune or can't be shot by non-magical shooting its a beautiful thing. So the old themes people loved about Protectorate are still there, they've just been compartmentalized into the theme forces. And for the love of Menoth people stop Female Doging about how we're not the best fire faction. Other factions can have nice things to and there are only so many elements to go 'round. Feora or Malekus in Guardians should be able to bring enough fire to satisfy any budding pyromaniac out there.
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Post by kuririnad on Jul 4, 2017 14:44:13 GMT
I think the issue is many people are trying to have Faction Identity as one big, overarching thing to tie everyone together. The devs have hinted that models have ballooned out so much that eventually people can play "Exemplars" or "Flameguard" instead of Protectorate. Example being Cephalyx - someone can just buy Cephalyx models and no other mercs, and be just fine and dandy, whereas they are the same faction so if someone else wants they can bring a Cephalyx list and a Damiano list to a two-list tournament.
It is most evident that they are moving in that direction with the recent Trencher CID - I feel like they added a TON of trencher models, so that at this point you could probably play Trenchers and still have varied lists while not feeling the need to buy into the whole Cygnar faction.
This mentality is great for newer players, or people who like the look/rules/fluff for one subsection of a faction, but for old hats who are tied to previous additions and are used to building lists with little consideration for subfaction, it requires a changing of how you think about the game.
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Post by WantonRanger on Jul 4, 2017 15:08:23 GMT
I think you would be hard pressed to quote fire as our thing particularly as other factions do it better and it's a greatly minimised part of the game now...
I agree that theme forces seem to suggest play styles but I await some.clarificatiion thaT any of them work that well...
A lot of the play styles pushed function better outside the themes due to restrictions or just mediocre theme benefits
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 4, 2017 16:41:50 GMT
I think you would be hard pressed to quote fire as our thing particularly as other factions do it better and it's a greatly minimised part of the game now... Try Cleansers under pSevvy/pFeora/Feora3 with hand of judgement nearby. Their RAT becomes 6/7, which makes a huge difference for hitting, and their POW is 14/15/16, which, when you have 12 of them, (full unit+CA+HoJ), becomes significant
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Post by paradox on Jul 4, 2017 17:13:11 GMT
I think you would be hard pressed to quote fire as our thing particularly as other factions do it better and it's a greatly minimised part of the game now... Which factions do you feel do it better? And in what way do you feel it's greatly diminished?
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 4, 2017 17:27:15 GMT
I think you would be hard pressed to quote fire as our thing particularly as other factions do it better and it's a greatly minimised part of the game now... Feora 1,2 and 3, Malekus, High Reclaimer, Testament, Durst, Reznik 2, Severius 1 and 2, Harbinger, Hand of Judgement, Fire of Salvation, Eye of Truth, Avatar, Repenter, Purifier, Crusader, Vanquisher, Reckoner, Judicator, Revelator, Castigator, Cleansers, Temple Flameguard, Cinerators, Sunbursts, Zealots, Covenant, Paladins, Pyrrhus, Vessel of Judgement, and Rhoven. Those are all of our models with a fire attack or some way of applying fire. I believe you would be harder pressed to quote any other faction as having a deeper fire theme than protectorate. You may or may not choose to use those options but they are definitely there. Really the only argument people make in this regard is WAAAAHHHH! Ragnor 2 and Kahlus 2 do it better ... which they do not, and having one caster in your stable with some fire related abilities does not a theme make.
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