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Post by tesoe on May 11, 2017 20:23:01 GMT
I would figure spray ponies, and kayazy would be the easy answers to ghost fleet.
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Post by Netherby on May 11, 2017 21:38:55 GMT
Doom Reavers, Fenris: the reason to include these over more conventional infantry. Magic weapons, to hit incorporeal. Reach, to get right into the middle of the enemy to clear them out with berserk. Natively high Def (13) coupled with fog of war creates a good chance of delivery versus shooting. So the problem with Doomies has always been 'can you deliver them?'. Sorscha1 definitely can help with that, but I think that Ghost Fleet is most likely to have Denny1. So, it will come down to the feat interactions. If Denny1 can get her army in threat range and feat first, the Doomies are going to all die before they make a single attack. Sorscha HAS to feat first or lose her army. Denny then has the option to counter feat or wait a turn. In TheoryMachine she should have to counter feat to avoid taking too much damage. But if she can avoid taking too much damage and feat on the next turn she wins. If we assume she counter feats, you won't do very much damage but should be able to engage a lot of the pirates in melee. What happens from this point isn't completely clear, but if you can freezing grip the black banes I feel like it would put you in a decent position.
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Post by sand20go on May 11, 2017 23:00:27 GMT
No. Butcher 2 could absolutely work and you have a good chance (as any) of triggering conferred rage which can be a huge boon to getting in and wacking the crap out of stuff. But again, why not Z1 or OW? Both have solid anti-shooting tech. Both have ways of dealing with a ton of infantry. Both have some ways of dealing with "hidding" units that are trying to be coy so that he doesn't loose all of the pirates. Finally - and while a risky play - you could try B3. Silence of Death REMOVES models from play. So you could TRY to suck in a huge number of pirates and then flashing blade them out of the game. Bring him in WG theme and sac pawn all day - using minifeat spray or rifle shots to futher clear out. Sorry mate I should have responded directly on this one. I don't dislike Zerkova1, I think she could likely do a fine job of clearing the infantry and is quite uniquely qualified (she can create arc nodes from enemies and boost on sprays). Unfortunately none of the cloud lists provide good defensive tech since ghost fleet ignores clouds :/ Z1 also doesn't provide a hit or damage buff. I do like your idea of Butcher3. I think he could tank enough to get into the ghosts. With feat and flashing blade he should be able to clear a unit minimum a turn. You feat ridiculously offensively. So Z1 is at the head of the army and having fun. So lets say you go second (which is probably the worst situation) Denny has lets say run though pirates up from say the 41 inch line (from your back edge) to around the 31 inch line. Could be somewhat closer but lets assume that. You now go. Place down the cloud wall. We want to put it at least 6 inches from PW and the Hell Slinger - which we can do if he moved unaggressively. [We know it isn't covering the rifles. We don't care.] There are 6 of them (usually). Feat. Now you go ahead and charge up 9 (to the 19 inch line). 12 inches from the leading edge of models. In an ideal world we catch the leader but the world isn't ideal. Your other stuff runs up and gets into position. Turn passes over. Now what does he do? He can't move up and shoot. He can't charge or run while with the feat. He can't issue special actions (but the army doesn't really have them). Now he CAN counter feat. But that puts Denny WAY the board if he wants to catch much stuff. You probably lose 2-3 models to rifle dudes (RAT 6 aiming....I assume some CRAs). The PW and the other guy get no souls. He has to figure out what to move up to contest. Bottom of 2. You look to clear. IDEALLY you get into a position to score multiples. In this list you SHOULD have either things that can shrug off the rifle shots. You TRY to move Z1 back to a good place but also look at Gravedoor.. I highly suggest looking to also place clouds - to drive the RAT of those Rifle dudes down -2. You probably CAN"T get the placement perfect but you can make it harder for them to get shots into her. Hopefully Silly Willy is in your list - exending one of those hex blasts 17 inches with blackbane's name on it (or the leader(s) of the Rev crew so you can really screw with recursions and how far back the returned rifle dudes come from. You also really want to expend resouces (Behemoth shots?) to get ride of those pW and the Hell slinger. If we can keep the game just Denny, bone chickens and the pirates depending on our list we CAN get through this. Top of 3. Denny's list counters. It will depend on what she has left. In an ideal world you force him to contest inefficiently (running something in, etc.). You weather out the withering (cause Denny will use it now). Your goal is to keep the pace of scoring up. Bottom of 3. Do what you can to score Bottom of 4. End it. The key is that you deny him the turn of shooting on Top of 2. If we can make that a really ineffective turn we can pull this off.
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Post by auraco on May 11, 2017 23:19:27 GMT
Yeah pirates are rat 4, but rengrave (who's going to be in the list) has veteran leader, and on Denny's feat your doom reavers won't be able to charge and be sp4, def 11 arm 12. She can just use her feat to make them easier to kill with pirates that now have the equivalent of rat 7. It's not that hard for denny to kill doom reavers. And getting a melee unit to kill en entire unit of revenant crew is kinda super difficult, they will clear the front row, then will get killed by the remaining pirates and the pirates will start coming back from there.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 12, 2017 0:50:11 GMT
I would drop Eiryss and Wardog to include the A&H and Gobber tinker. Eiryss is not point-effective at shooting anything, she's only good for killing caster. And you won't be killing Denny since you have no anti-stealth tech. I don't know about doomie concept. It will probably fail miserably against Denny feat+ton of shooting, but you never know, those pirates are short ranged and low rat and have to deal with colossal shooting and S1 feat. My personal piece of tech against gunlines is Vlad 1. Good at keeping your stuff alive with Windwall, good at closing distance with feat. He actually can deliver the doomies in this list unharmed. Vlad3 would probably even be better for doomies and he even has sick feat combo with Fenris. Not sure I would rely on windwall to deliver doomies, the Hellslinger Phantom and pistol wraiths have magical guns, so does the Revenant Cannon, which will turn you clustered doomies into more pirates Forgot about that. Oh well, doomies seems like all around bad plan then. Maybe with Vlad2 they can work due to feat and no shoot bubbles. Anyway point about Windwall being good against Fleet still stands. At the very least your caster is relatively safe from assassination with it.
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Post by borderprince on May 12, 2017 5:15:03 GMT
Unfortunately none of the cloud lists provide good defensive tech since ghost fleet ignores clouds :/ Z1 also doesn't provide a hit or damage buff. Ghost Fleet does ignore clouds, but not the Zerkova1 clouds attack debuff. Doesn't help at long range, but does as you close in. As for the damage buff, do you really need one against Cryx? I've not found anything in Cryx so tough that it can't be handled by a Juggernaut.
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Post by Havock on May 12, 2017 6:03:53 GMT
The recursion is a bigger problem than incorporeal. I'm toying with a Sorscha2 + A&H + Valachev list, if I kit it right it can chew through that list and have Kiss + feat to crack open heavier lists (or downright assassinate).
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Post by Kriegsspiele on May 12, 2017 7:58:54 GMT
I'm wondering that you guys seem to have so much trouble with GF?
In my experience, Alexia2 under S1 (or even B3!) is sufficient to get the whole thing under control. Thanks to SPD 8, RNG 10 you pretty easily RFP one leader per turn - while your Snipers and the RCDS do the rest. It's 7 points, but I really love Alexia in other mutchups, too - not only against GF/Cryx.
More important: a classic S1 Ocean's works very well into lots of other lists, too, while Doom Reavers will just die - what I'd expect against Denny1, too. - If you want to run Doomies, I'd suggest to run them under Z1 instead: Her cloud wall protects them way better than FoW.
Besides, a standard V1 3x3 Rocketeers (and their WGRC/I grunts) lists gets the whole thing under control as well. It's not as trivial as with Alexia2, but still very doable.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on May 12, 2017 9:32:30 GMT
I'm wondering that you guys seem to have so much trouble with GF? In my experience, Alexia2 under S1 (or even B3!) is sufficient to get the whole thing under control. Thanks to SPD 8, RNG 10 you pretty easily RFP one leader per turn - while your Snipers and the RCDS do the rest. It's 7 points, but I really love Alexia in other mutchups, too - not only against GF/Cryx. More important: a classic S1 Ocean's works very well into lots of other lists, too, while Doom Reavers will just die - what I'd expect against Denny1, too. - If you want to run Doomies, I'd suggest to run them under Z1 instead: Her cloud wall protects them way better than FoW. Besides, a standard V1 3x3 Rocketeers (and their WGRC/I grunts) lists gets the whole thing under control as well. It's not as trivial as with Alexia2, but still very doable. Playing into it with a lack of magic weapons and infantry clearing models is one reason. The players with the list are also post England team players, which is a much larger reason. Going into the tournament with a plan in mind is essential honestly. So. All that in mind. I'm thinking about either B2 or B3 in winterised theme. Use the winter guard as delivery men thanks to sac pawns. Get casters into melee. Remove units en masse. Rely on warjacks as shields. Mainly because I'd like to live the dream again with butcher. I haven't used him in so long, Butcher2 especially.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on May 12, 2017 11:08:43 GMT
ii) Remember the recursion and stationary interactions. FROZEN leaders can NOT issue orders. However, recursion models CAN take a movement and action even if the rest of the unit is frozen. Last time I checked this specific thing in rulebook it was the other way. Can you point out a confirmation to your statement?
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 12, 2017 11:48:19 GMT
I've found Irusk2 in Jaws of the Wolf works well against Ghost Fleet. Have played it where my ranged output far outpaces the recursion of three pirate units.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by auraco on May 12, 2017 12:26:58 GMT
I'm curious to see how Old Witch2 will end up because at the end of the CID with wind storm OW2 was not half bad at protecting against the ghost shot rifles. She was kinda lacking in the magic attack department though.
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Post by benjamini on May 12, 2017 12:54:37 GMT
The two lists Khador I have played into the ghost fleet have been old witch with doom reavers (so it sounds like we're on a similar page there!) and Butcher 3 JOtW. I have also played a few Skorne lists... but my treachery to the motherland isn't what's at issue here!
I certainly felt more confident playing the Witch into the ghost fleet than I did Butcher 3, but I think he still has some potential.
In both games I found myself missing some way of dealing with removing upkeeps (especially painful with the jackspam Butcher), but even then it seemed hard for my opponent to deal with the sorts of armour that I was presenting him with. The list had few infantry models... so there wasn't much for Blackbane to bring back, and I mean... he has to pop out of incorporeal sometime! Most of the list had pretty high MAT too.
Zerkova 2 with spray ponies may also be good!
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Post by Netherby on May 12, 2017 22:18:15 GMT
I don't see Ghost Fleet alone as a big problem. It's one of the least capable Cryx armour cracking lists. Sure, they will still scrap a heavy each turn but we can live with that. A Jaws list can handle it pretty decently.
The problem I foresee will come with a Banes pairing. The new Banes theme and Banes changes will give them cheaper and stealthed Banes which will shred a jack heavy list. So we need a drop that can handle both those lists.
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Post by borderprince on May 13, 2017 4:49:02 GMT
I don't see Ghost Fleet alone as a big problem. It's one of the least capable Cryx armour cracking lists. Sure, they will still scrap a heavy each turn but we can live with that. A Jaws list can handle it pretty decently. The problem I foresee will come with a Banes pairing. The new Banes theme and Banes changes will give them cheaper and stealthed Banes which will shred a jack heavy list. So we need a drop that can handle both those lists. I like this problem. It means there isn't something so simple as a Cryx drop because there are only a couple of viable builds. It makes things harder, but that's part of the challenge. I think the solution might be to think about the themes slightly differently. There's a tendency to design theme lists to maximise the free points, which are a clear advantage of the themes. But doing that requires a very considerable expenditure on jacks (Wolf) or warriors (WG Kommand and LoS). But going too far infantry heavy or jack heavy risks gaps in what a list can achieve. It's too early to say, but might Jaws (for example) be better with a full unit of Kayazy Assassins to jam/delay the Banes (or Exemplar) as well as the Eliminators and Widowmakers that are often picked up? Could WG Kommand benefit from more jacks in the lists? If that ends up happening, I think PP will have done a good job of overall game design in encouraging more balanced lists.
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