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Post by W0lfBane on May 25, 2017 22:54:41 GMT
Replenishes all her focus and that effect and suddenly you have a really decent feat. Also I'm a real fan of nerfing her feat to command range. That way when my cygnar friends complain about it I'll be like "its fine" and make up for them waving me away when i complained about the ridiculous Harby nerf So they should ruin a caster in the game for everyone just to let you feel better about your faction? I am a vengeful god
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on May 26, 2017 8:05:46 GMT
So they should ruin a caster in the game for everyone just to let you feel better about your faction? I am a vengeful god
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Post by jisidro on May 26, 2017 14:16:59 GMT
Well, I'm a fan of thre idea to rework a model while keeping the original concept...
Harby's nerf was probably done during a coffee break, it kept martyrdoom one of the most OP abilities around, her awesome spell list but decided to remove her feat...
I'm pretty sure there are a number of ways to make a super-martyr with Menoth's favor than that spell list + abilities... The same goes for H2, the problem is not the feat, it's everything else that goes along with haley... The access to an Arc Node (And not ashabby one), the spell list, the FOCUS 8, the Squire, Future Sight...
Wurmwood for exemple, ppl exagerated the effect of a huge forest on armies but the issue was the feat + spell list. They keep hellmouth as the ridiculous spell it still is and just pushed the feat back. I would much prefered a rework of the spell list around hellmouth and stranglehold than a feat that hides the caster and some stuff close to it. Same goes for Madrak2 ut even worse because the madman in front of any army willing to die for him became a back line caster who is hard-to-kill buff bot.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 26, 2017 14:38:03 GMT
I think Harby might see a bit of a come back after the Battle Engine cID is released, having a huge base to hide behind that can heal her for d3 and keep her from having to cast purification, that also has 2 boostable gun shots, play that package with the two seneschals who can be healed up as well, along with some kicking monks.
You could maybe even take it in the Exemplar theme, the battle engine healing d3 can replace loosing the Hierophant.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on May 26, 2017 18:19:13 GMT
There's just not a good dispersion of anti-control abilities across the factions. Most of the abilities that do are also very binary and offer little counterplay from the control ability. Immovable object is a good example, where there isn't enough of that kind of effect, but the reason is that the one example of the effect is too extreme. Immunity to magic is another one that's rare, with spell ward and the like being such a hard "no" that there can't be too many of them. I think there should be softer "no" abilities against magic and push/place, and that those abilities should have a much thicker spread. They could even use many of the existing abilities and just tack on +2 def against magic into the magical weapons keyword, or fold "halve the distance of push effects" into the Sturdy keyword.
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Post by cainuslupus on May 27, 2017 22:48:55 GMT
I think Harby might see a bit of a come back after the Battle Engine cID is released, having a huge base to hide behind that can heal her for d3 and keep her from having to cast purification, that also has 2 boostable gun shots, play that package with the two seneschals who can be healed up as well, along with some kicking monks. You could maybe even take it in the Exemplar theme, the battle engine healing d3 can replace loosing the Hierophant. Harby is strong even without CID BE. Martyrdom is insane ability to have and her spell list is really good. Many PoM players I've spoken with see it as well. She is seen less often because she must compete against other very good casters. Back in MK2 she was head and shoulders above all other options, natural choice.
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Post by tapecrawler on Jun 3, 2017 9:03:01 GMT
I think the problem with Haley2 is she doesn't really have hard choices to make. She's got an extremely useful spell list, future sight, set defense, a ball breaking feat, and plenty of focus to go around. This is just too much once the H2 player gets past the learning curve, there are too many good pros with no real cons to her. I come from a Khador background and think it's a bit silly that people talk about as long as you have a good shooting game, you can take her out. Khador has more access to AOEs than any other faction but they are RAT4 mostly and Haley2 has Force Field that invalidates that as an viable option. The only other shooting options have to be inside her feat to have her in range. My suggestion to fix this on so many levels would be to make her focus lower. I'd prefer it to be lowered to 6 but I think that would cause a fairly large uproar. I mean she's just a talented human, no way she have more focus than Old Witch. The lower focus will force H2 to have to make hard choices every turn just like the vast majority of the casters in other factions.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 3, 2017 9:36:41 GMT
I think the problem with Haley2 is she doesn't really have hard choices to make. She's got an extremely useful spell list, future sight, set defense, a ball breaking feat, and plenty of focus to go around. This is just too much once the H2 player gets past the learning curve, there are too many good pros with no real cons to her. I come from a Khador background and think it's a bit silly that people talk about as long as you have a good shooting game, you can take her out. Khador has more access to AOEs than any other faction but they are RAT4 mostly and Haley2 has Force Field that invalidates that as an viable option. The only other shooting options have to be inside her feat to have her in range. My suggestion to fix this on so many levels would be to make her focus lower. I'd prefer it to be lowered to 6 but I think that would cause a fairly large uproar. I mean she's just a talented human, no way she have more focus than Old Witch. The lower focus will force H2 to have to make hard choices every turn just like the vast majority of the casters in other factions. Here is the thing you are trying to tackle this from a list design perspective not a gameplay one. Khador has the gun line available to have game into haley without any effort. The generic vlad1, 5 heavy, 3 rocket unit, ubiquitous list is sufficient. You apply enough pressure with guns to make haley feat to get in, do not give up the farm during the post feat alpha, retaliate, do not lose the game on scenario the next turn, cruise to an easy attrition victory as haley runs out of steam. Post feat haley does not have a great answer to joe plus rifles/rockits. Once thorn goes down you can bully haley back and stop her from doing much. When the haley list starts losing stuff things go bad fast. When vlad 1 loses things it doesnt really matter much as you have a metric ton of redundancy non of your stuff is unique barring obv vlad and joe. I know i made it sound a bit easier than it is, haley has a ton of options. All it requires is practice, well, that and a bunch of guns.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 3, 2017 9:41:36 GMT
I think the problem with Haley2 is she doesn't really have hard choices to make. She's got an extremely useful spell list, future sight, set defense, a ball breaking feat, and plenty of focus to go around. This is just too much once the H2 player gets past the learning curve, there are too many good pros with no real cons to her. I come from a Khador background and think it's a bit silly that people talk about as long as you have a good shooting game, you can take her out. Khador has more access to AOEs than any other faction but they are RAT4 mostly and Haley2 has Force Field that invalidates that as an viable option. The only other shooting options have to be inside her feat to have her in range. My suggestion to fix this on so many levels would be to make her focus lower. I'd prefer it to be lowered to 6 but I think that would cause a fairly large uproar. I mean she's just a talented human, no way she have more focus than Old Witch. The lower focus will force H2 to have to make hard choices every turn just like the vast majority of the casters in other factions. With access to a single power up and a lot of 2 and 3 cost spells that she wants to cast you would be surprised how quickly she runs out of focus. She has a lot of resources but she uses them inefficiently compared to other casters.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 3, 2017 9:45:15 GMT
With access to a single power up and a lot of 2 and 3 cost spells that she wants to cast you would be surprised how quickly she runs out of focus. She has a lot of resources but she uses them inefficiently compared to other casters. "Dear PP: Caster I have 100% Balanced. Caster I don't is 100% broken." Not that I really have much experience with Haley2 but your logic does seem to be following that pattern. I know i made it sound a bit easier than it is, haley has a ton of options. All it requires is practice, well, that and a bunch of guns. Again not much Haley 2 experience but that's DEEPLY broken logic. So just reduce your list building options into what plays directly into her, and she's not a problem at all! That actually is a much BIGGER indictment of her actually, if she warps list building so greatly.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 3, 2017 10:25:41 GMT
With access to a single power up and a lot of 2 and 3 cost spells that she wants to cast you would be surprised how quickly she runs out of focus. She has a lot of resources but she uses them inefficiently compared to other casters. "Dear PP: Caster I have 100% Balanced. Caster I don't is 100% broken." Not that I really have much experience with Haley2 but your logic does seem to be following that pattern. I know i made it sound a bit easier than it is, haley has a ton of options. All it requires is practice, well, that and a bunch of guns. Again not much Haley 2 experience but that's DEEPLY broken logic. So just reduce your list building options into what plays directly into her, and she's not a problem at all! That actually is a much BIGGER indictment of her actually, if she warps list building so greatly. I never commented on her power level in my comment, I just took issue with the idea that she has enough focus to do whatever she wants forever. Also if Cygnar players are forced to use Haley 2, that's fine, but other players being forced to counter her is bad? Meta happens.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 3, 2017 10:40:34 GMT
Also if Cygnar players are forced to use Haley 2, that's fine, but other players being forced to counter her is bad? I never said It was fine (Nor from what I understand is she forced). Something being so good you have to build against it IS bad.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 3, 2017 21:40:57 GMT
I always enjoy watching cygnar players defends their meta warping lists, casters and units. Gives me the warm feelings to know that my own faction is not the only one with horse blinders on.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 3, 2017 23:04:56 GMT
I always refused to play haley2 when I played Cygnar. I never wanted to hear my opponent say "well you only won cause you played a broken BS OP caster". I don't believe she is broken or OP, but I don't want an opponent to make me feel bad about winning either.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 3, 2017 23:20:35 GMT
I always refused to play haley2 when I played Cygnar. I never wanted to hear my opponent say "well you only won cause you played a broken BS OP caster". I don't believe she is broken or OP, but I don't want an opponent to make me feel bad about winning either. When I played Cygnar, I dropped Haley2 exactly twice. Both times were into relatively experienced players with decent lists (dropping Haley2 into someone who's unprepared, inexperienced, or wants a casual game is dirty, and you should feel bad if you do it,) and both times I wrecked them, despite my relative unfamiliarity with the caster. She's really not that hard to use (there are many, many casters with higher skill caps, including Haley3) and she has so many tools that the only danger I was really in was of clocking myself exploring all the options that I had. She isn't broken, she is most certainly OP by any reasonable metric.
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