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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 23, 2019 8:15:26 GMT
I was reading the simple version of the 40K rules. So far 8th ed does seem to be the best iteration I've seen yet, but... I still like Warmachine rules much more. Less abstract, more intuitive. More interaction between your own models baked in to the core rules.
Combat feels so weird in 40K to me now. You charge 2d6" (after moving), but if the charge fails you don't move. Then you move 3" before attacking, then 3" after. Then your opponent attacks in your turn, which means another 3"-attack-3". And I think you can fire pistols before fighting, and your opponent can fire Overwatch when you charge them. But I don't think you can just move up and attack, you HAVE to charge to get within 1" so you can attack?
Warmachine is just so much straight-forwards. Of course that's possible because Warmachine was designed to be played on a smaller scale, so it doesn't require as much abstraction to speed it up. So yeah, 40K is great for people who want to run 200 models in a single battle. Personally I'm fine with smaller scale; part of the reason why I gotninto Warmachine in the first place was the lower model count!
Sigh. Just venting. Sorry. I'd love to try to get these guys into Warmachine, but they are so heavily invested in 40K that it's not going to happen.
Anyway, at least it finally gives me a reason to assemble those Grey Knight models I bought, like, a decade ago.
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Post by michael on Apr 23, 2019 14:32:29 GMT
I watched my FLGS co-owner play some 40k the other day. His army of genestealers were about 8” from a gunline of Tau, and thanks to those lovely random dice, he discovered he utterly failed to charge them, and got shot to death for his efforts. Nothing like roughly 100% random functionality to make something “fun”! Seriously. “Did we remember to bring bullets to the battle today, sarge?” That type of gross incompetence breaks the realism for me. It’s the same reason I can’t stand Magic: the Gathering. “I am a mighty Planeswalker! Reality itself bends to my whims! But I can’t kill my opponent right now because I totally forgot how to summon the monster I need, so hang on and stop hitting me while I think about it.” .... Yep.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 23, 2019 14:46:12 GMT
Yeah, the huge swing in potential movement for a charge is a strange one. So you can walk 5", then maybe you'll charge 15" (12" charge then 3" pile-in) or maybe it will be 0". That's a lot of randomness.
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Post by Havock on Apr 23, 2019 23:36:11 GMT
I was reading the simple version of the 40K rules. So far 8th ed does seem to be the best iteration I've seen yet, but... I still like Warmachine rules much more. Less abstract, more intuitive. More interaction between your own models baked in to the core rules. Combat feels so weird in 40K to me now. You charge 2d6" (after moving), but if the charge fails you don't move. Then you move 3" before attacking, then 3" after. Then your opponent attacks in your turn, which means another 3"-attack-3". And I think you can fire pistols before fighting, and your opponent can fire Overwatch when you charge them. But I don't think you can just move up and attack, you HAVE to charge to get within 1" so you can attack? Warmachine is just so much straight-forwards. Of course that's possible because Warmachine was designed to be played on a smaller scale, so it doesn't require as much abstraction to speed it up. So yeah, 40K is great for people who want to run 200 models in a single battle. Personally I'm fine with smaller scale; part of the reason why I gotninto Warmachine in the first place was the lower model count! Sigh. Just venting. Sorry. I'd love to try to get these guys into Warmachine, but they are so heavily invested in 40K that it's not going to happen. Anyway, at least it finally gives me a reason to assemble those Grey Knight models I bought, like, a decade ago. Yeah, after playing Warmachine for so long, a friend tried to get me "back" to GW stuff with 40k and AoS and I just... Can't play with those rules anymore. "But it's casual and not competitive". God how I hate that statement; the goal of the game is to have fun, the objective is to win.
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Post by michael on Apr 24, 2019 0:57:12 GMT
Yeah, after playing Warmachine for so long, a friend tried to get me "back" to GW stuff with 40k and AoS and I just... Can't play with those rules anymore. "But it's casual and not competitive". God how I hate that statement; the goal of the game is to have fun, the objective is to win.
Winning is easy!
...just buy the newest codex.
Zing!
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Post by Havock on Apr 24, 2019 2:19:59 GMT
The importance of the "buy models phase" should also not be underestimated.
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Post by michael on Apr 24, 2019 2:31:53 GMT
The importance of the "buy models phase" should also not be underestimated. Given how many ridiculous 40k “conversions” I have seen and/or heard about: I wouldn’t presume that to be required.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Apr 24, 2019 8:18:21 GMT
Yeah, after playing Warmachine for so long, a friend tried to get me "back" to GW stuff with 40k and AoS and I just... Can't play with those rules anymore. "But it's casual and not competitive". God how I hate that statement; the goal of the game is to have fun, the objective is to win.
I always get bad stares when I say I play to win. Some people aren't in the right mind when they say "I don't play to win". Hell then why you play at all? I do play to win. It doesn't mean I'm going to cheat or be unfair, it means just that I will play with victory in mind and if I can grab an opportunity for a easy win I'll do it. If I can get a good army combination I'll field it. I play to win whatever I'm playing. Either is wargaming or online gaming. If I'm playing Dota, be assure I'm not there for the sake of it. I'm going to take every opportunity and to resort to every trick in the hat to make it happens.
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Post by Havock on Apr 24, 2019 11:27:17 GMT
Mostly, yeah. I'm all for occasionally seeping around with builds but when it's on the table I'll still try to win, I guess? How does it work otherwise?
"Yeah, not going to contest that zone because you earned it."
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 24, 2019 16:12:14 GMT
Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.
The battle here is "a match", and the war is "keeping the game alive".
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Post by Havock on Apr 24, 2019 16:31:43 GMT
There is a difference between not using everything you can against the newbie and outright throwing the match.
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Post by tapecrawler on Apr 24, 2019 17:28:35 GMT
I’ve been really excited about the Oblivion stuff and finally got a chance to go over and read up on the rules. I’m pretty pissed now, 8 out of 17 new models/units are partisan Cygnar? I mean I was very stoked about Alexa3 and her interaction with the legion unit and then I see they are partisan Cygnar. So Cygnar can actually take the full FA but we can’t. I don’t know when I’d want to take 3 units of them, but not having the option just feels wrong when the dirty swans can use them on top of all the other new toys they get.
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Post by Havock on Apr 24, 2019 18:02:30 GMT
You can still play Flames in the Dark and play them to your heart's content.
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Post by tapecrawler on Apr 24, 2019 18:44:17 GMT
Thanks Havock, I’ve been looking into that and I’m a little bit mollified now.
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Post by Havock on Apr 24, 2019 22:49:29 GMT
We get some good and fun stuff this CiD. Flames is a good place for Zerkova1 and WOOF has a lot under the hood, especially with the current additions.
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