mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on May 5, 2017 21:06:35 GMT
Wow, this is fast. So it loses the +2 Rat within 5", Dang. With it having duel attack I was really excited about trying that. Although... 16 points? This is actually getting good. Lol
I haven't been on the hater bandwagon the whole time though. I wonder if others agree it is actually improving.
I will say though... they want it to be a "tank" they need 1 more armor IMO.
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Post by macdaddy on May 5, 2017 21:21:02 GMT
It still has the special rules from the pdf it just gained bulldoze went down to 16 and replaced momentum with heavy impact. It didn't lose any rules at all.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on May 5, 2017 23:31:11 GMT
The momentum may have rolled shorter then you liked or they may have had too many bodies in the way to melee the target. I'll miss the trample, but like the shooting gallery. The new theme force, though, is useless in my meta. Infantry spam is not a thing here, and outside of character heavies there is no way to break an arm 20 jack, let alone a pile of them. Mountain King can still be taken. Bring him with Horgle and he can take out a pile of them. I don't own any Kings, so I don't think about them. The Mountain King definitely helps with the armor breaking, but that's a lot of points to not get free models with.
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Post by trollsareblue on May 6, 2017 0:54:04 GMT
It's definitely an improvement. I don't know that it'll see table time, but it is better. PP's plan for the WW doesn't offer anything new to the faction. I'd rather have seen it as a gun platform, with stuff to help troll shooting.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on May 6, 2017 1:45:51 GMT
Maybe I was wrong to call people out for complaining until things get buffed. Cmon, let's get this puppy down to 15 points so I can free ride my way to tournament wins with double War Wagon.
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Post by Ravenfire-guest on May 6, 2017 16:27:30 GMT
As long as pp positions the ww as a model designed to go into melee, it will suck. You will not kill anything in melee (except for one or two tiny infantry) and you will get removed trivially by a beast or jack in the next turn.
It needs to be a gunplatform, or it should have covering fire at least to protect itself from single point weaponmasters
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Post by Trollock on May 6, 2017 19:34:50 GMT
As long as pp positions the ww as a model designed to go into melee, it will suck. You will not kill anything in melee (except for one or two tiny infantry) and you will get removed trivially by a beast or jack in the next turn. It needs to be a gunplatform, or it should have covering fire at least to protect itself from single point weaponmasters I do not agree. It is not trivial to remove, even if it is outside the aura. It works just fine on a flank and could get work done against infantry on the flanks while still staying out of the threat of most melee heavies. Most heavies will not be able to one round this thing. Your run of the mill juggernaught with 3 focus will only do about 27 boxes to it if it charges, and that is if you are outside the aura. Inside and it would only be 19, so 2 of them might not even do the trick. The WW will not kill them back, but you are exaggerating a bit here imo.
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Post by robbleyourworld on May 6, 2017 20:59:03 GMT
As long as pp positions the ww as a model designed to go into melee, it will suck. You will not kill anything in melee (except for one or two tiny infantry) and you will get removed trivially by a beast or jack in the next turn. It needs to be a gunplatform, or it should have covering fire at least to protect itself from single point weaponmasters I do not agree. It is not trivial to remove, even if it is outside the aura. It works just fine on a flank and could get work done against infantry on the flanks while still staying out of the threat of most melee heavies. Most heavies will not be able to one round this thing. Your run of the mill juggernaught with 3 focus will only do about 27 boxes to it if it charges, and that is if you are outside the aura. Inside and it would only be 19, so 2 of them might not even do the trick. The WW will not kill them back, but you are exaggerating a bit here imo. I'm with Trollock here in its current state it is not easy to remove at all. Even without buffs it requires real commitment of either a buffed heavy or 2 heavies to guarantee removal of it so it will be difficult to deal with on the flanks. if we can start putting the aura or other arm buffs on it the thing obviously gets even more difficult to deal with so even bringing it up closer to the middle doesn't seem like a terrible decision. A full unit of charging weapon masters will do some real work on it but at the same time it out threats a lot of those and does a lot of work against that them in return so its not like rock vs scissors its more like rock vs rock.
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Post by trollsareblue on May 7, 2017 0:13:39 GMT
As long as pp positions the ww as a model designed to go into melee, it will suck. You will not kill anything in melee (except for one or two tiny infantry) and you will get removed trivially by a beast or jack in the next turn. It needs to be a gunplatform, or it should have covering fire at least to protect itself from single point weaponmasters I do not agree. It is not trivial to remove, even if it is outside the aura. It works just fine on a flank and could get work done against infantry on the flanks while still staying out of the threat of most melee heavies. Most heavies will not be able to one round this thing. Your run of the mill juggernaught with 3 focus will only do about 27 boxes to it if it charges, and that is if you are outside the aura. Inside and it would only be 19, so 2 of them might not even do the trick. The WW will not kill them back, but you are exaggerating a bit here imo. How are you going to get it on a flank unopposed? Trolls want to go first. The theme pushes you to go first. If you do go first, your opponent will decide what the WW faces. If you don't go first, then you have the general problem of cast spells/fuel the stone: pick one. I'm not optimistic about the WW getting its points back. At best, I think you could use it to initiate a trade, because it's less of a bother, or cheaper, to lose the WW rather than a beast.
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Post by Trollock on May 7, 2017 7:16:34 GMT
When deploying second, the troll models are not the only thing that decide where an opponent puts his models. Scenario is a big factor too. Also, SPD 7 affords the WW quite a bit more mobility than the average heavy jack.
Dont get me wrong. I am not going to play many WWs in the current iteration with the current themes in the current meta, but i think it is playable. Jut not great.
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Post by allinontrolls on May 7, 2017 8:27:57 GMT
In my opinion the ww is a interesting piece. I think grim2/grissel1 in our new theme + ww is a good place to start.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on May 7, 2017 11:42:24 GMT
I'll vouch for it not being trivial to remove outside of the stone. The game I played with it my opponent has to use two or three weapon crews and a fully focused jack or two to put it down. It wound up eating about forty points with of resources, and I got to wreck a jack in return after it killed most of a max WGI with rockets.
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Post by trollsareblue on May 7, 2017 17:42:19 GMT
...i think it is playable. Jut not great. You have summed up my feelings on Trolls in general right there.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on May 8, 2017 18:27:22 GMT
I'm going to post this here, because I think I might get an infraction for putting it over in the CID forum.
The above paragraph suggests to me that there is something deeply won't with the CID process, but that is not relevant to this post.
Even with all the best rules that have been brainstormed for the WW, I feel that taking it away from the standoff shooty role that might go in if it sees a perfect setup is a betrayal of the model. Looking at the model we see a driver, a scatter gunner, a loader, and BFG with a gunner. What about that says "I'm a combined arms monster"to you? It's a big wagon with a couple of oxen, granted, but they didn't even mount spikes or add any hint of a melee role to the model. I've been trying to polish the betrayal-turd like a good little play tester, but I feel like I am betraying the model the whole time.
There, I said it and I think I feel better.
Have a good day everybody!
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 19:30:43 GMT
I'm going to post this here, because I think I might get an infraction for putting it over in the CID forum. You might. Which above Paragraph? I mean at least oxen can convey a headbutt thus a slam SOMEWHAT. Horses...Man I sure do want my squishy horses carrying this heavy cart into melee!
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