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Post by moarbarmu on Mar 18, 2021 1:35:56 GMT
No one seems to think of the Highshields as viable, except for me. However, in a Hammerstrike army, having a unit with guns makes sense. Also in Gorten's and Ossrum's armies, they are very viable. Gorten and Bamfist can raise their DEF, behind a Rock Wall to 17 and ARM 19, DEF 17, with Tough is quite good. Ossrum can make their range 14''. Sure another 2'' on the basic gun would be great, but it i viable behind a rock wall or sniped. CRA and CMA are both useful and the officer is quite good. Hammerfall Siege Crawlers and Guvul Godor create great recursion for the Highshields. I do not see why the Highshields are the only major rifle unit in the game viewed as totally non-viable, when it is better than some of them.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Mar 18, 2021 7:31:04 GMT
Just about any unit becomes worthwhile if you put enough ressources into it, but is it worth it?
Forcebarrier could go on Forge Guard, Gorten could be behind his Rockwall, Snipe is more valuable on a bunny, Avalancher, Earthbreaker or Crawler, and it could be Forge Guard returning from recursion.
There are other non-viable riflemen in the game, but I think thats because there are better shooting options in their respective themes. The Highshields are non-viable because they are a design mess.
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Post by moarbarmu on Mar 18, 2021 16:01:34 GMT
That sounds like group think to me. The Highshields are not non-viable. If people actually played them in enough numbers, you would see that. You have no good arguments as to why they are not viable other than the opinion of the group. Warmachine players are much less creative or imaginative or independent-minded than other games. The anti-Dwarf spirit in the fan base and by the developers is why I cannot ever really get into this game. A fantasy game without Dwarves? It is a huge flaw.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Mar 20, 2021 6:32:48 GMT
Its my opinion, just because you disagree doesnt make it "group think".
I think the highshields are a design mess, because they have both ranged and melee abilities, with no obvious synergy like assault or gunfighter.
Double time or Shield wall is a hard choice, so hard it might even be considered skornergy.
They can sort of fix their low rat and pow, but then they reduce the amount of shots.
They could possibly work as zone holders/contesters, but I'm not sure you can get them there fast enough.
Apart from the unit itself there is its role in the one theme its in. Yes, its allowed in more than one theme, but the other themes have better native units or better merc choice.
Hammerstrike is mostly recurring forgeguard or bunny spam these days. In low point games I've had fun and some succes with Jack heavy lists. I dont see a tanky low range unit fitting in there.
So instead of dismissing my opinion as group think, why not tell my why its a good unit, what its role is and what lists they fit into?
And for the record I want to like the unit, because they look so friggin cool.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 20, 2021 13:42:14 GMT
Well, even if a model is not something unusable at all, it does not means it is worth a look.
I like their concept, but are they really good that much?
RNG 10 POW 10 gun is just plain. Not bad, but not so good. CRA means they are capable shooter, and Guns Blazing gives decent firepower. Yes, the good side ends here.
CMA is not so good actually. Unlike CRA, CMA is only there for mediocre melee combatant that cannot deal with the hard target in melee, for someone can deal with the enemy in melee will make charge attack without CMA. So do RNG 0.5 melee range. They are not meant to be a melee unit. They are ranged unit first and foremost.
And, the power is too plain. Double Time is nothing but kidding, since they are dying out against enemy fire without Shield Guard. Do you really think that a DEF 11 unit that does not have ARM 17 survives against RAT 5~6 RNG 10~12 POW 10~11 attacks decently without any buff? A decade of experience on me says, it is impossible.
What remains is, they are just plain shooter that can't expect next turn to shoot, and are just durable as much as a Shield Wall unit.
And Rhulic groups have Horgenhold Forge Guard, Grundback Blaster&Gunner.
Personally, as a Cygnar player I like the ranged dominance. But in the reality, ranged weapons are only meaningful if it able to reduce the enemy enough. Their output is not terribly bad but is not so noticeable either. And they are slow as well as rely on the order to survive. Trencher Infantry is expensive than them as well as needs the order of the officer to survive, but Trenchers have SPD 6, RAT 6, Advance Deployment and Tough. Also effective DEF 17 against ranged and magic and blast protection usually gives far better protection than ARM 19, and is easier to avoid enemy debuffs. Rely on the CA means they are not so good option for hire as well. I'm not saying Trencher Infantry is good that much, but as both of them have the same niche of anti-ranged ranged unit, it may worth considering.
Seriously, only if Double Time is replaced by Granted: Reposition[3"], they may have the better place. It means they may make 13" distance to the target, and usually models with SPD 6 or less does not have threat range of 12" when they charge. ARM 19 is quite tough for unboosted POW 10 to 11.
Also cheap access for Tactician for Rhulic groups. With this they may screen the Forge Guards and move back when the enemy is close while Forge Guards are repel the enemy.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Mar 20, 2021 18:05:16 GMT
Mat 5/Rat 5 is already enough of a reason do discount them on its own in my eyes. Yes CMA and CRA exist but those are much, much better when you add those bonuses onto stats that are baseline "good" rather than baseline "terrible" and sometimes you really want to take 10 shots per unit and not 5 outside of mini feat turn. Plus dwarves are pretty starved for hit and damage fixing too. In cryx or ret you migth get away with a 5 on your hit-chance stat (see stormfall archers) but in hammer strike you don't)
And after that it doesnt get much better. They have terrible defensive stats, terrible speed, terrible POW/P+S, terrible range on their guns and cost 19 points for a full unit with CA. And while, yes, there are buffs to compound some of these issues, those buffs can be put on other rhulic models as well. Snipe on Harlowe Holdemhigh is insane, Force Barrier and rockwall on no-kd-tough frog guard evenly so. And it's not like dwaves are starved for good melee game (bashers, drillers, frog guard) or ranged game either (crawler, bunnies, harlowe, HACs), so they dont need a inbetween unit at all.
Also if it means anything to you, i just so happen to think most "rifleman type" units are non-viable too. No good list includes Steelhead riflemen, reeves, (non-trecher) longgunners, invictors or houseguard riflemen.
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 20, 2021 21:32:46 GMT
Also if it means anything to you, i just so happen to think most "rifleman type" units are non-viable too. Yeah, Trenchers are the pinnacle for "riflemen" units, but a lot of that is because of all the tools that they have when out on the table, meanwhile, a lot of other riflemen just seem overcosted for what they provide to the table.
I've been looking in to Warcry, and a lot of the ranged weapons there have a maximum range of 15, meanwhile all of the riflemen in Warmachine are shorter than that, and in most cases MUCH shorter than that. That range rather puts most "riflemen" in to short interactions of "useful while you're right there", and "oh s***, I'm in Melee" with nothing really useful in Melee.
High Shields are one of the few "rifleman" units which actually have benefits in Melee, but not really in a retaliatory mode, just survival. This doesn't really help them stand out in most cases, from what I've seen.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 21, 2021 4:19:53 GMT
An engaged unit does nothing but jamming though rest of the game, whatever melee or ranged. And High Shields don't do much even with charge. I doubt that anyone is interested with their melee output, though. Else is it a newbie trap?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Mar 21, 2021 14:18:05 GMT
Also if it means anything to you, i just so happen to think most "rifleman type" units are non-viable too. Yeah, Trenchers are the pinnacle for "riflemen" units, but a lot of that is because of all the tools that they have when out on the table, meanwhile, a lot of other riflemen just seem overcosted for what they provide to the table.
I've been looking in to Warcry, and a lot of the ranged weapons there have a maximum range of 15, meanwhile all of the riflemen in Warmachine are shorter than that, and in most cases MUCH shorter than that. That range rather puts most "riflemen" in to short interactions of "useful while you're right there", and "oh s***, I'm in Melee" with nothing really useful in Melee.
High Shields are one of the few "rifleman" units which actually have benefits in Melee, but not really in a retaliatory mode, just survival. This doesn't really help them stand out in most cases, from what I've seen.
yeah. If you wanna count Blighted Nyss archers as "riflemen unit" they probably take the cake as the pinnacle though, given trenchers have largely faded out of the meta as well. Kinda ironic that frost elves with bows trump technology, but here we are. However combined arms units such as Croes, Idrians, Nyss Hunters et al are actually quite good too. It's okay to be "okay" at range if you can go to town in melee competently. High Shields do neither.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 21, 2021 15:07:57 GMT
The rapidity at which enemy melee troops engage my Highshields, or any of my other Factions' sub-12" ranged weapon units (I own many...) creates a negative onfield experience as the ranged troops weak melee doesn't allow battlefield control via any significant attrition of those enemy melee models.
The risk/reward for army inclusion of shorter-ranged range-fighting specialists is often inferior to melee proficient troops.
As a game element, I would love to see something like this as a BASE rule for several, if not many of my Factions' shelved ranged units:
At Close Range: When attacking an enemy model within 4" this model gains a boosted damage roll on its first non-spray ranged attack. AOE damage rolls do not gain this boosted damage.
This is effectively ranged units' "Charge" ability. A boosted damage roll after maneuvering to acquire a base-base positional relation. Does not allow Snipe. Allows counter play against ludicrously fast engaging melee troops. Makes risking a freestrike more of a choice for a ranged specialist. Nod to greater kinetic force when not at full range. I believe there are no full time 4" melee models? (Ponderings of a 10+ Faction fan, with many languishing models...)
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 22, 2021 1:18:27 GMT
The rapidity at which enemy melee troops engage my Highshields, or any of my other Factions' sub-12" ranged weapon units (I own many...) creates a negative onfield experience as the ranged troops weak melee doesn't allow battlefield control via any significant attrition of those enemy melee models. The risk/reward for army inclusion of shorter-ranged range-fighting specialists is often inferior to melee proficient troops. As a game element, I would love to see something like this as a BASE rule for several, if not many of my Factions' shelved ranged units: At Close Range: When attacking an enemy model within 4" this model gains a boosted damage roll on its first non-spray ranged attack. AOE damage rolls do not gain this boosted damage. This is effectively ranged units' "Charge" ability. A boosted damage roll after maneuvering to acquire a base-base positional relation. Does not allow Snipe. Allows counter play against ludicrously fast engaging melee troops. Makes risking a freestrike more of a choice for a ranged specialist. Nod to greater kinetic force when not at full range. I believe there are no full time 4" melee models? (Ponderings of a 10+ Faction fan, with many languishing models...) I don't think that it comes to the reality. It only applied to the ranged weapon and is only meaningful in 4", means they are unlikely to have a situation that actually use it and you better taking the melee troops instead. Their typical gameplay is move and shoot, then got charged. Boosted ranged damage roll within 4" have really no place in here, unless the model also has Gunfighter. Although Sons of the Tempest already proves that it is worthless in the real games.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Mar 23, 2021 8:48:51 GMT
Is moarbarmu a troll?
2 recent threads:
Is Mortenebra 1 the best jackcaster in Mercenaries?
Why not take a Highshields unit in Hammerstrike?
Talking about Morty as a good jack caster and Highshields as a viable unit, without trying to prove it with arguments other than "other games have dwarf armies" and "warjacks are Warmachines strength" sounds like trolling to me.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Mar 23, 2021 9:15:55 GMT
Is moarbarmu a troll? 2 recent threads: Is Mortenebra 1 the best jackcaster in Mercenaries? Why not take a Highshields unit in Hammerstrike? Talking about Morty as a good jack caster and Highshields as a viable unit, without trying to prove it with arguments other than "other games have dwarf armies" and "warjacks are Warmachines strength" sounds like trolling to me. Personally i'd rather assume a person is wrong before assuming they are trolling/lying. If they like dwarves and jacks and got into warmachine for that reason that's perfectly valid. I personally don't like their attitude of "y'all are just uncreative and a hivemind" and "the devs are bad for not catering to exactly my tastes", but a lot of people have an attitude, that does not make them trolls.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Mar 23, 2021 10:52:47 GMT
I didnt assume trolling at first, but I the topics, the very few responses and the attitude has made me suspicious. To be clear, I'm not angry I'm just curious if its honest attempts at starting a debate or trolling I'm all in if its the first, its interesting topics, if the OP has something new to add, but I dont want to waste my time is its trolling
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Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 23, 2021 13:17:34 GMT
I think that you have some reasons. While it is not compelled to answer, but does not respond while put the other question can make someone suspicious.
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