kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on Sept 24, 2020 14:42:21 GMT
So the meta in my area has completely died. Everyone moved away or moved on to other games and sold off their stuff. There is a small infinity meta at my store so I'm thinking of jumping in there. Does anyone have any experience with that?
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Infinity?
Sept 24, 2020 17:24:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by Havock on Sept 24, 2020 17:24:42 GMT
It's a good game. They went a bit overboard with the special rules and weapon profiles imho but it is legitimately a fun and engaging game. My local meta found it too hard though anything beyond Warhammer Underworlds is considered to be "too complex" so that bar is not very high.
Unfortunately.
Any faction that has your interest?
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on Sept 24, 2020 18:05:07 GMT
I like the look of yu jing but understand a lot of their rules are changing with n4 coming out so I picked up the o-12 starter. Looks fun.
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Infinity?
Sept 25, 2020 11:42:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 25, 2020 11:42:10 GMT
A friend and I were starting Infinity when we heard about the edition change and put it on hold. I kind of want to like the game, but the few early matches I had didn't really grab me, and what I read about the rules and stuff wasn't helping either. I felt that the rules just weren't as clean as I would have liked.
Also, it felt strange to me that it was a low model count game where most models could die to a single shot, which could even happen during their own activation. It just felt super dicey, and not in a good way (to me). Just trying to walk a model forwards can get you insta-gibbed.
Anyway, I LOVE the models and some of the fluff, and I still have hope for the new edition.
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on Sept 25, 2020 18:40:37 GMT
A friend and I were starting Infinity when we heard about the edition change and put it on hold. I kind of want to like the game, but the few early matches I had didn't really grab me, and what I read about the rules and stuff wasn't helping either. I felt that the rules just weren't as clean as I would have liked. Also, it felt strange to me that it was a low model count game where most models could die to a single shot, which could even happen during their own activation. It just felt super dicey, and not in a good way (to me). Just trying to walk a model forwards can get you insta-gibbed. Anyway, I LOVE the models and some of the fluff, and I still have hope for the new edition. Soul, the game is really not supposed to be killy. According to my local infinity guy (and the escalation/journeyman style league i played during n3 that i forgot i was even part of....that was a really bad time outside of the game for me) Its even more about playing for the objective than wmh tries to be. Yeah you can get shot really easily, but that just means next time you should try to keep that from happening. Also TERRAIN TERRAIN TERRAIN. If you arent using 95% of the game store's terrain you aren't using enough(and I'm only sort of joking). The few games I had from that league were really fun from what I wrote up about them for my own notes but n4 probably invalidates what i thought was broken/fun/silly. Ninjas are cool though, being invisible and taking down a giant robot with just a sword felt super good.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 27, 2020 13:23:16 GMT
Soul, the game is really not supposed to be killy. Oh? Interesting. I mean, that's not the impression I got from the few intro games I played (or the battle reports I read). We were playing Icestorm, so using models and terrain as specified in the booklet. Of course those are "kill the enemy" missions, I understand that the real game is objective-based, but still: it just felt to me like any model could die to a single mistake or bad die roll. In contrast I normally have an idea of what's at risk and what isn't in WMH, due to the manageable threat ranges and rock-paper-scissors stats (I know that my ARM20 jack isn't in danger when in range of a unit of POW 10 gunners, etc). Meanwhile in N3 my heavy-armour captain dude steps out and takes three (or was it four?) shots at a single grunt, and dies to the crit on the single ARO shot. I know that's something that the odds were very much against, but... I dunno, that's just the lasting impression that stuck with me: a single bad dice roll and my own model dies in my own turn even though it should have been a vary favourable situation to me, and there was basically nothing I could do to prevent it short of not actually playing the game at all. Sure, I can lose my models in my own turn in WMH (free strikes and AOE scatters and stuff), but pretty much only if I've decided to try a risky move. I know that's a design feature of Infinity, I just found it... oppressive somehow? Anyway, I only played a few games so I know that I only have a very early impression, I haven't written the game off or anything, though I do have a lot of other games that are taking up my attention right now. WMH, W:NM, Zone Raiders (which I found to be more in line with my tastes and which my many Infinity models will be great for, and which you should download the free PDF to take a look at), etc. I do still want to like Infinity, so hearing that you're enjoying it is very encouraging.
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Post by Havock on Sept 27, 2020 14:06:09 GMT
The game is actually hilariously killy, but people find out and start to play carefully. Most defeats by new players are because they deploy like a conventional game where they just line their shit up and then some camo Uranus or fast HI runs up the field and obliterates half their dudes.
If there is not enough terrain you can get the opposite where it's just 7 dudes hiding behind a wall and some armored, camo dudes popping shots at each other.
The problem with the game is that it's -moreso than even WMH- skill-dependent. Sure you can get the occasional win by just rolling hot but yeah, most things caught in the open tend to die.
As for you HI dying to one ARO; it's unlikely. - He has to crit on one shot: 1/20 - You have to not crit on 3+ dice
And he only does one auto damage, most heavy infantry has two wounds and ARM4 or something, assuming you were in cover you still had a decent shot (hah) at surviving.
My problem with my local meta was that they were... Unwilling to become better at it, they kept just deploying stuff isolated from each other, not creating (covring) fire lanes and just folding because I could just murder 3-4 dudes casually, not worry about reprisal and just make away with the proverbial cake.
They just didn't arse and it bled to death, they then just started playing the occasional boardgame or Warhammer Underworlds which caused me to lose interest.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 27, 2020 16:56:21 GMT
As for you HI dying to one ARO; it's unlikely. - He has to crit on one shot: 1/20 - You have to not crit on 3+ dice Just in case it wasn't clear, the example I gave wasn't rhetorical, it was what actually happened in my last game. My dice were cold, and the IceStorm box doesn't seem balanced (at least for the first three or four missions) because PanO has better ballistic skill than Nomads, which is the main stat in those intro games at least (and their sniper is pretty much strictly better in every way). I know it was a crazy fluke (I don't remember if I had already taken a wound or if crits cause double damage), it's just the the result was that I was left with an impression of, well, it just didn't feel like there was anything I could do: even when I had my best model attack his worst model, I still died on my activation. With lists, terrain etc that the game designers themselves suggested we use to start with. So yeah, just a bad experience I guess. Meanwhile in Zone Raiders you a) don't die on your own activation b) have more ways to stack the dice in your favour (get the high ground, get the target in sight of multiple models, have another model act as a spotter, etc) c) have more decisions to make about what to do with your models (move or aim, spot or shoot, shoot once or shoot twice but have to reload next turn, etc) with slightly more interactions between your own models (healing each other, providing cover, ganging up, carrying a downed model to safety, etc) d) have one activation per model rather than this weird "I have ten models so I can have nine guys stand around not do anything while one guy activates eleven times" thing - which I'm not saying is bad, it's just unintuitive to me e) have more survivable models: you can die to one good shot, but it's less likely - but a good shot will still take it's toll and you can't survive too many f) follow a campaign structure where your models level up and find rare gear in missions g) can play competitively or cooperatively, making the most of the highly evocative setting ... yes, I know I sound like an advertisement for Zone Raiders. The game just hits me in the right spot in so many ways, I really want it to get popular. I mean, it's model agnostic and the free PDF has the core game rules and three faction rules, so it's basically free to start playing. Anyway, Infinity... um, amazing models and stuff.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 27, 2020 17:07:23 GMT
...The game is really not supposed to be killy. According to my local infinity guy (and the escalation/journeyman style league i played during n3 that i forgot i was even part of....that was a really bad time outside of the game for me) Its even more about playing for the objective than wmh tries to be. Yeah you can get shot really easily, but that just means next time you should try to keep that from happening. Also TERRAIN TERRAIN TERRAIN. If you arent using 95% of the game store's terrain you aren't using enough(and I'm only sort of joking). The few games I had from that league were really fun from what I wrote up about them for my own notes but n4 probably invalidates what i thought was broken/fun/silly. Just because the scoring aspect of a game is objectives doesn't change how killy the game is. Infinity is incredibly killy, both in ease of killing and opportunity to kill. This is a combination of the ranges of the weapons, how easy it is to cause damage, and the general lack of resilience of the targets. Oddly enough, if one extended the ranges of WMH weapons and allowed everyone to have Counterblast, the odds of the average solo surviving on the field without a ridiculous amount of terrain would be about the same.
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Infinity?
Sept 27, 2020 17:50:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 27, 2020 17:50:16 GMT
Well... counterblast only triggers once per round (per model)n right? I think in Infinity there's no limit to the number of AROs a model can make right? Another thing about the game I find a bit... I dunno, immersion-breaking I suppose.
It would feel a bit more realistic to me if a model has a limited number of AROs; rather than a sniper with a good view taking individual shots at every single model that moves, imagine it like a movie where one person dashes out of cover to act as a decoy and attract enemy fire, allowing someone else to advance while the sniper is distracted, you know?
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 28, 2020 2:10:45 GMT
Well give me 150 points of WMH models on the field, and it doesn't matter that it's a once per round thing. It would be a blood bath.
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Infinity?
Sept 28, 2020 12:34:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by Havock on Sept 28, 2020 12:34:13 GMT
I found Nomads to be tricky at low point games because they are errr, more synergistic?
Pan-o is easy; Guns go brrr. Nomads come into their own when they can bring their (weird) support. Not to say they don't have solid stuff but it's often not what's in the boxes.
I play(ed) Haqq, Ramah specifically which is more of a faction of glass rapier. Shit just randomly dies if you screw up. Although the immunities help a little.
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Oct 1, 2020 9:34:56 GMT
I kinda failed at getting Infinity. Models are awesome (even if posings are often... questionable at best), setting is great (and I usually hate cyberpunk). But the game itself left me very confused. You need a lot - a table with boatload of special terrain, gigaton of interacting and overlapping rules, and all that to barely move a couple of models and do... something. Maybe. I think it's a very much "not for everyone" game. I still don't understand clearly what do I dislike about it so much - heck, Malifaux has a boatload of interlocking rules as well, but I love it - probably it's that you need to spend a LOT of time and effort to see very little actual action on the table.
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on Oct 5, 2020 17:08:47 GMT
Okay since everyone is jumping on me about me saying the game isn't killy, I will elaborate. Yes stuff dies, hard and fast. But most of the missions that we played weren't "go kill everyone". It was more objective "push the button and hold" type of missions. Do models get blown up? yes. If you protect the people that are your button pushers though, the rest are just chaff until you score enough points. I often felt in wmh that if i needed something to hold a flag, and a zone, and be near a circle to contest that often my army was just solo hunting the opponent so they can't take stuff, but they are doing the same to my stuff and it ends up just being a middle of the board murder fest.
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Post by Havock on Oct 5, 2020 21:43:05 GMT
Right, it's less murder fests and more errr. There is a Battletech term that comes to mind: Combat loss grouping. Basically in Infinity you show up with 8-10 orders and its all fine and then chaff dies and you are down to 6-8 and once you get below 5 every casualty you take brings you dangerously close to retreat and/or losing your vital models as well as severaly dimishing your ability to react because your orders are down as well.
Assuming both sides are evenly matched, the game mellows down because you simply cannot play aggressively without overextending anymore (ie. blow 5 orders into moving and shooting and save two for ducking into a safe space). If players are mismatched, as happened to me, what happened is an early game lopsided slaughter (4:1 or so) leaving one side hunkered down and on defense while the winning party just has a pleasant stroll in Objective-Land.
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