igor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 122
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Post by igor on May 1, 2020 23:19:19 GMT
Komrades! I am in need of you collective wisdom. Since most of us are more or less locked up (or down?) and unable to (physical) play, I have been thinking about the Journeyman League, and making a guide to it for new aspiring Khador players. I am assuming a rush of (new) players when we are allowed to meet up again. Personally, I really like the format. There is already a pretty good one at Line of Sight (see here). However, with time on my hands I was thinking about making a more comprehensive one. I wanted to cover all of our five main themes (I'm ignoring Warriors of the Old Faith and Flames in the Darkness). I have made some assumptions: Colossal are not to be used; if I read the document correctly, Battle Engines are not allowed; strict adherence to keeping all models as you move through the levels; and I am trying to keep it as pure Khador as possible (so no flying angle-like stuff and the like). Finally, I have grouped them (looking ahead towards a two-list steamroller model) and attempted to minimise purchases across all five themes. So far, I have ended up with three groups: Armored Korps and Wolves of Winter; Winter Guard Kommand and Jaws of the Wolf; and the lonely Legion of Steel. This leaves me with two documents (still work in progress): * A kind of a flow chart, which can be found here. This shows the progress though the themes and the groups. * A spreadsheet style summary, which can be found here. This should detail the purchases required. The former is hopefully self explanatory; whereas the latter might not be. In the spread sheet the themes are also grouped, and text in green are model already owned by a player at the specific point level. Text in black is new purchases. I think I need help here. I am not convinced that this is the best progression through the themes and pairs of themes. I have probably also made some silly mistakes. Any comments will be highly appreciated. For the Motherland |
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Post by sand20go on May 12, 2020 21:30:33 GMT
I will try to look at and offer my thoughts. I LOVE the idea of the lists and how you created the flow chart. I also want to think about maximizing models that play across the themes so you maximize that.
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Post by sand20go on May 13, 2020 0:09:23 GMT
Immediate thoughts but more later. Mostly as a place holder
Not sure about the Jaws just to 58 points (which looks like a Forge Seer and another Jugger). I also want to question basic premise of Jaws which is to get him away from Kozlov. I wonder if we shouldn't try to stick with Lord Goat throughout. I agree that branching off with Casters is good but there is also a lot to be said with LEARNING one caster well before moving a second. I realize that he isn't as good as Karchev but maybe rather than move to another caster we add in ANdy0? That minimizes the impact on the wallet and they can have a LOT of focus out at the same time. Under FOG of War he should be generally survivable. That also could allow us to add in Beast09 for learning about bonds and giving us a valuable shield guard (along with a murder bot under BC and Loard Goats feat.
Similarly, I think we can stick with Kozlov the whole way through AK. I would suggest either goat all the way through Wolves or swap to Vlad2. If you did that you would end up with goat, Vlad1 and Vlad2. Those are all relatively straight forward casters to play and we want our newbie to be able to understand stuff. 2 are also S tier (for Khador) and thus we are helping the new person be competitive.
Wolves is what I know best so I am loath to add that many ternions rather than lots and lots of doomies. But it is driven, I think, by your choice of Andy because prowling doomreavers are really cool ;-)
I will add some more but I definately would consider doing this with only those 3 casters (and maybe even JUST vlad1 cause Andy isn't great at Winterguard (but not bad as he can get Tac Sup to the Rifle Corp and help them really play keep away with shots and rocket)
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Post by zwergenkrieger on May 24, 2020 7:51:17 GMT
Hi, great idea! I can only contribute to the Jaws of the Wolf theme because at the start of MkIII I heavily thought about that theme with Kozlov. IMO one should think about Kayazy Assassins under Kozlov. He offers reposition and Fury, which both are great buffs for them. Kayazy Assassins with Fury, Gang and Backstab are at effective MAT 8, P+S 15 + 3d6, equalling in average damage rolls of 25, which you can even use to threaten jacks / beats in smaller sized games. The underboss is even better with 2 attacks at effective MAT 10. Let´s say you bring the underboss and one dude in the backarc of a jack / beast. That´s 21 points of damage on average against ARM 18.
On the charge (without backstab) they are still MAT 8, P+S 13 +3d6, which equals in a damage roll of 23 on average. With some Decimator bombs before charging this might be enough to even threat heavies.
A min unit with underboss is 13 points which is ok for JML progression. In Jaws of the Wolf the UA can be a free option which allows a full unit of Kayazi Assassins + UA in a 15 points step.
Kayazi Eliminators are even scarier with Kozlov. Gang, Combo Strike, Fury means 2 effective P+S 18 +3d6 (on the charge) attacks at MAT 9 per unit with a threat range of 10.5 inches. Combine this with with a Decimator shot before charging and you can reliably delete one light jack / beast per turn or severely cripple a heavy.
In fact, I think Eliminators are so good with him you should always include a unit in week 3 (when they become available) no matter what theme you´re heading for (they count as Mercenairies, therefore can be included in every single Khador list.) THey will make short work of any solos / small units the opponent brings in week 3.
I´d also choose a Kodiak in week 2 because he offers some intresting tools with Kozlov. Kozlov can give him reposition which means you can use the vent steam – reposition trick to generate a 4" cloud on the table. Fury helps this rather pillow fisted heavy a good deal.
Therefore the start of a JML would be
week 1 Kozlov Decimator Juggernaut
week 2 Kozlov
Decimator
Juggernaut Kodiak --- 13 points
week 3 (Jaws of the Wolf)
Kozlov
Decimator
Juggernaut
Kodiak
Kayazi Eliminators Kayazi Eliminators Widowmakers
Sorscha0 (I´m not experienced enough to say which jack on Sorscha0)
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30 points
That last 30pts list can also be run in Winterguard Command, though you loose the second unit of Eliminators and have to take something else instead.
Can´t say much about the further development of the list because I´m out of the game for 2 years now and things changed massively in that time, at least that´s my impression.
Especially I don´t know wether Harkevich is still a thing or not with his Kodiak rolling smoke approach. It might be a goal in JML but I really don´t know.
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igor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 122
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Post by igor on May 28, 2020 8:01:14 GMT
Immediate thoughts but more later. Mostly as a place holder I also want to question basic premise of Jaws which is to get him away from Kozlov. I wonder if we shouldn't try to stick with Lord Goat throughout. I agree that branching off with Casters is good but there is also a lot to be said with LEARNING one caster well before moving a second. This is a really good point. I agree with the point of learning a single caster as good as possible. I realize that he isn't as good as Karchev but maybe rather than move to another caster we add in ANdy0? That minimizes the impact on the wallet and they can have a LOT of focus out at the same time. Under FOG of War he should be generally survivable. That also could allow us to add in Beast09 for learning about bonds and giving us a valuable shield guard (along with a murder bot under BC and Loard Goats feat. Why not Sorscha0 instead of Andy0? She also adds Boundless Charge, and would be applicable in WGK. Similarly, I think we can stick with Kozlov the whole way through AK. Good point I would suggest either goat all the way through Wolves or swap to Vlad2. If you did that you would end up with goat, Vlad1 and Vlad2. Those are all relatively straight forward casters to play and we want our newbie to be able to understand stuff. 2 are also S tier (for Khador) and thus we are helping the new person be competitive. Wolves is what I know best so I am loath to add that many ternions rather than lots and lots of doomies. But it is driven, I think, by your choice of Andy because prowling doomreavers are really cool ;-) I will add some more but I definately would consider doing this with only those 3 casters (and maybe even JUST vlad1 cause Andy isn't great at Winterguard (but not bad as he can get Tac Sup to the Rifle Corp and help them really play keep away with shots and rocket) Another good point Hi, great idea! I can only contribute to the Jaws of the Wolf theme because at the start of MkIII I heavily thought about that theme with Kozlov. IMO one should think about Kayazy Assassins under Kozlov. He offers reposition and Fury, which both are great buffs for them. Kayazy Assassins with Fury, Gang and Backstab are at effective MAT 8, P+S 15 + 3d6, equalling in average damage rolls of 25, which you can even use to threaten jacks / beats in smaller sized games. The underboss is even better with 2 attacks at effective MAT 10. Let´s say you bring the underboss and one dude in the backarc of a jack / beast. That´s 21 points of damage on average against ARM 18. This is a pretty good idea. I have also always had a soft spot for assassins (also under Irusk2). I have never managed to actually play them sufficiently to have a strong feeling about them. On the charge (without backstab) they are still MAT 8, P+S 13 +3d6, which equals in a damage roll of 23 on average. With some Decimator bombs before charging this might be enough to even threat heavies.
A min unit with underboss is 13 points which is ok for JML progression. In Jaws of the Wolf the UA can be a free option which allows a full unit of Kayazi Assassins + UA in a 15 points step.
Kayazi Eliminators are even scarier with Kozlov. Gang, Combo Strike, Fury means 2 effective P+S 18 +3d6 (on the charge) attacks at MAT 9 per unit with a threat range of 10.5 inches. Combine this with with a Decimator shot before charging and you can reliably delete one light jack / beast per turn or severely cripple a heavy. In fact, I think Eliminators are so good with him you should always include a unit in week 3 (when they become available) no matter what theme you´re heading for (they count as Mercenairies, therefore can be included in every single Khador list.) THey will make short work of any solos / small units the opponent brings in week 3.
The ladies are cool  They could also fit into AK. I´d also choose a Kodiak in week 2 because he offers some intresting tools with Kozlov. Kozlov can give him reposition which means you can use the vent steam – reposition trick to generate a 4" cloud on the table. Fury helps this rather pillow fisted heavy a good deal. Therefore the start of a JML would be week 1 Kozlov Decimator Juggernaut week 2 Kozlov
Decimator
Juggernaut Kodiak --- 13 points week 3 (Jaws of the Wolf)
Kozlov
Decimator
Juggernaut
Kodiak
Kayazi Eliminators Kayazi Eliminators Widowmakers
Sorscha0 (I´m not experienced enough to say which jack on Sorscha0)
---
30 points That last 30pts list can also be run in Winterguard Command, though you loose the second unit of Eliminators and have to take something else instead. Can´t say much about the further development of the list because I´m out of the game for 2 years now and things changed massively in that time, at least that´s my impression. Especially I don´t know wether Harkevich is still a thing or not with his Kodiak rolling smoke approach. It might be a goal in JML but I really don´t know.
So, I'm hearing stick with Kozlov in both Jaws and Armored Korps. I think this sounds like a sensible and good idea. I'll see if I can find to time to try to rework the progressions to fit with this. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 28, 2020 10:51:35 GMT
Who's Andy 0?
I really like Andy 1 and 2 though; while I see the advantage of Sorscha 0 being able to hand out BC and FoW, that doesn't make her strictly superior to Andy 1: remember that Redline is a damage buff too. A Redlined kodiak is a happy kodiak!
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igor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 122
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Post by igor on May 28, 2020 13:03:36 GMT
Who's Andy 0? I really like Andy 1 and 2 though; while I see the advantage of Sorscha 0 being able to hand out BC and FoW, that doesn't make her strictly superior to Andy 1: remember that Redline is a damage buff too. A Redlined kodiak is a happy kodiak! Oh yes, I don't think it is a competition on who is better I just think that it is more often I miss a few inches threat range, rather that a bit more heavy hitting. Kozlov's feat and Boundless charge will bring a standard 'jack up to 12" threat distance. Based on the happy memories of Vlad1 throwing a 'jack 14" up the board makes 12" a bare minimum. There are too many things out there that need to be kept honest by a significant threat range. |
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Post by sand20go on Jun 4, 2020 21:21:49 GMT
Who's Andy 0? I really like Andy 1 and 2 though; while I see the advantage of Sorscha 0 being able to hand out BC and FoW, that doesn't make her strictly superior to Andy 1: remember that Redline is a damage buff too. A Redlined kodiak is a happy kodiak! I think of Andy Junior as Andy 0. I am sure incorrect. I think S0 and Andy the Junior both in the jaws list. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 5, 2020 10:53:44 GMT
Call him Malakov Junior, or MJ for short. That shouldn't be confusing, it's not like any other famous fictional characters or real people or mind-altering substances share those initials...
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They could also fit into AK.
