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Post by charlzheimer on Dec 9, 2019 8:50:45 GMT
Which is why the only really acceptable nerf would be dropping their FA. Yeah, it would screw anybody who bought 3 units, but if they really care about balance that would be the path forward. Besides its not like there aren't counters. In order for Harby to stay in range of those shield guards, all 9 initiates need to stay within 3" of her. That's... a very tight bunch of models that HAVE to stay close to each other. While they don't care about AOEs, tight packs of models give up board positioning and many other things as well. from fighting that list they only need 2 units to keep harby safe. the other 3 keep other key models safe. heck even 1 unit is enough to keep harby safe. but perhaps the meta will change and the unit will lose value in the changing meta. (still think they shouldn't be free)
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snap
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Post by snap on Dec 10, 2019 11:11:01 GMT
One nerf might be take her out of the caster pool for FM. But I can already see that generating a lot of rage.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
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Post by shmeep on Dec 10, 2019 11:19:36 GMT
One nerf might be take her out of the caster pool for FM. But I can already see that generating a lot of rage. Completely castrating the caster ain't the solution.
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Post by marxlives on Dec 10, 2019 19:30:14 GMT
In point of fact, I do. And you had Devouts, Vilmon, and Rhovens guards. And a theme wall weve since lost. And just los blocking. But thats actual skill and play. Also in the beginning of 3rd people in some countries refused to listen to recommended terrain setups and kept setting up terrain just like in 2nd. As a result they kept playing on empty shooting ranges with no LOS blockers and complained about shooting being overpowered. Those players had to be directly instructed about LOS blocking terrain being ok, desirable and in fact necessary in the following SR packets.
And yeah. I remember all the complaining from the beginning of 3rd about PoM being absolutely unplayable just because our OP stuff has just been brought in line. Surprisingly, Polish WTC teams took pre-buff PoM to WTCs with great results, but what do they know, those Polish players....
That is too bad. The terrain generation is one of the things that make SR awesome. I even use it in casual games.
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Post by marxlives on Dec 10, 2019 19:32:50 GMT
Which is why the answer is to buff other things in the faction to provide an attractive alternative to Harby+Initiates. Better to bring the balance up from the bottom than simply swat everything that is good down to mediocrity. I don't understand this attitude. Harbinger is a Focus10 caster with Purification, Crusader's Call, Guided Hand, and Rebuke, and a Command12 aura of -2 to attack rolls for living models. In what world is that not an excellent caster, even if Martyrdom did not exist on her card? Nerfing martyrdom would make her slip into A- tier. In a faction with a LOT of A- and A+ casters. She would fade into being an average caster for the faction. A faction which has had far too much of the flavor drained out of it.
Martyrdom is a very flavorful ability that is also strong. I don't want to see any more steps backward for the faction. Its been too much over the course of mk3. We've had our denial game cut way too far. Matyrdom is one of the only things that remains. Harbinger already got her feat made useless, Purification made cost4, the change to how focus works made her much more squishy, etc... Leave the poor girl alone.
She ain't a girl no more. She went all Pulp Fiction and now is a woman soon.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 11, 2019 7:21:04 GMT
One nerf might be take her out of the caster pool for FM. But I can already see that generating a lot of rage. Wouldn't happen. That theme list was made with her as one of the casters where its a "fluffy" choice.
From a thematic perspective, that would be like banning Kreoss2 from Exemplar Interdiction.
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Post by charlzheimer on Dec 11, 2019 9:02:23 GMT
One nerf might be take her out of the caster pool for FM. But I can already see that generating a lot of rage. Wouldn't happen. That theme list was made with her as one of the casters where its a "fluffy" choice.
From a thematic perspective, that would be like banning Kreoss2 from Exemplar Interdiction.
lets talk FM as a whole and initiates. if you were to remove initiates as a free option. how bad would that really be?
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snap
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Post by snap on Dec 11, 2019 10:10:04 GMT
Wouldn't happen. That theme list was made with her as one of the casters where its a "fluffy" choice.
From a thematic perspective, that would be like banning Kreoss2 from Exemplar Interdiction.
lets talk FM as a whole and initiates. if you were to remove initiates as a free option. how bad would that really be? Would mean you'd be spending 29 pts on support in most harby lists. Would also nerf the rest of the roster pt wise and would maybe rail road you into taking idrians ua, vassals and vilmon etc. I think it would be ok for harby but not great for everything else. I think FM is fine with other casters since the nerf. I think nerfing it further would put that theme into the realms of "collector of dust". I think most likely we'll see a change to the wording on martyrdom as that's the other half of the problem. Probably to "once per model" or "during your opponents turn when destroyed by an enemy attack" or something. Edit: You could also add some counterplay by making it an upkeep. Would mean you can't just drop her into everything.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 11, 2019 10:41:13 GMT
Would mean you'd be spending 29 pts on support in most harby lists. Would also nerf the rest of the roster pt wise and would maybe rail road you into taking idrians ua, vassals and vilmon etc. I think it would be find for harby but not great for everything else. I think you're vastly overestimating the need of having 3 units of Initiates. Most people include them because they can, and because they're good. If you include them for defense, most matchups can actually be played with just 1 unit and maybe Vilmon. If you include them for more than just defense, it's not correct to classify them as "points in support".
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 11, 2019 12:58:14 GMT
What 3 Initiate units really does is make list chicken less of an issue. If they have an anti infantry theme and a shooty theme and you brought Harby and a EI list, you can drop Harby without it being an auto lose if they bring Garyth2, double Trident, AFG with 16 shots in 3 models.
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Alealexi
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Burning heritecs and wracking as always... it's a personal hobby.
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Post by Alealexi on Dec 18, 2019 6:08:07 GMT
Which is why the only really acceptable nerf would be dropping their FA. Yeah, it would screw anybody who bought 3 units, but if they really care about balance that would be the path forward. Besides its not like there aren't counters. In order for Harby to stay in range of those shield guards, all 9 initiates need to stay within 3" of her. That's... a very tight bunch of models that HAVE to stay close to each other. While they don't care about AOEs, tight packs of models give up board positioning and many other things as well. I don't think that will help anyone by just changing FA. I think the better option would be to change the theme benefit to let you take a max 1 unit of initiates for free and maybe drop them to a 6 point cost. That way if someone wants to get a 2nd unit they can pay 6-7 points and if they want to get the 3rd they can spend 12-14 points in their list. This in turn will also allow for getting other solos that can open list up a bit by not just spamming initiates.
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Alealexi
BattleBox Champ
Burning heritecs and wracking as always... it's a personal hobby.
Posts: 55
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Post by Alealexi on Dec 18, 2019 6:31:45 GMT
I think most likely we'll see a change to the wording on martyrdom as that's the other half of the problem. Probably to "once per model" or "during your opponents turn when destroyed by an enemy attack" or something. I don't think that would happen as it involves too much book keeping for the "once per model". Your opponent could martyr a model and you both can forget if you already martyred that model or not. It is fine on the Dhunian Archon because it is a once per turn effect that just flat out prevents damage roll but not Harby since you are already keeping track of so many models. The second part is not very useful since you cannot remove damage on a model that is no longer on the field.
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Post by charlzheimer on Dec 18, 2019 19:26:19 GMT
harby nerf has been made. its d3+1 damage now.
making it a minimum of 2 damage per matyrdom.
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Post by mydnight on Dec 18, 2019 19:44:05 GMT
harby nerf has been made. its d3+1 damage now. making it a minimum of 2 damage per matyrdom. It's the 'best' nerf we could expect. It does wear her down much more quickly, but doesn't change her game plan much.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
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Post by privvy on Dec 18, 2019 21:48:22 GMT
It'll be barely noticeable in most games but you'll feel it in the long term. It brings the average amount of Martyrs from full health from 8 to 5, and it just means you spend them on the really important targets instead of the less important targets.
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