Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 6, 2019 20:04:56 GMT
Id argue that the Initiates would not have received Ret Strike. Soles pivoted *hard* away from Initiates getting Righteous Vengeance from Vilmon during CID. I can only assume the same logic would have applied. PP wanted to keep them strictly defense and flat out refused to add or let them benefit from any rules that increased their offensive output. Look at it this way: they got Girded, instead of nothing. Im talking just about the champs and regular paladins themselves. The Champs already have Ret Strike though (they didn't lose it), so just the regular Paladins (and Vilmon) then. And to be honest, I've again gotten more use out of Girded. But that's because the Paladins die to a single charging attack before they get to Ret Strike. Less of an issue with that CID and more of an issue that those dudes still aren't worth their paper.
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Post by paradox on Dec 6, 2019 20:42:12 GMT
Im talking just about the champs and regular paladins themselves. The Champs already have Ret Strike though (they didn't lose it), so just the regular Paladins (and Vilmon) then. And to be honest, I've again gotten more use out of Girded. But that's because the Paladins die to a single charging attack before they get to Ret Strike. Less of an issue with that CID and more of an issue that those dudes still aren't worth their paper. Yes. Sorry. To clarify, the Leadership interaction.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 6, 2019 21:49:20 GMT
My point was that the Initiates get to benefit from Leadership: Girded whereas they would not have been written in were it Leadership: Retaliatory Strike. I'm happy we at least get some value out of their leadership because Initiates actually see table time, where Vilmon and vanilla Paladins don't nearly as much.
It's a silver lining.
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Post by paradox on Dec 6, 2019 22:12:12 GMT
My point was that the Initiates get to benefit from Leadership: Girded whereas they would not have been written in were it Leadership: Retaliatory Strike. I'm happy we at least get some value out of their leadership because Initiates actually see table time, where Vilmon and vanilla Paladins don't nearly as much. It's a silver lining. I have Vilmon and 3 paladins (plus 2 champs) in every FM list. And no initiates. But Im not playing Harbie, either. When I do, Ill take 2-3 units of initiates. But non-Harbie FM? Yeah. Paladins. And I actually have a running count of Girded vs Ret Strike with a buddy. Ret Strike comes up alot more than Girded. And Girded is a trap vs bounce effects.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 7, 2019 6:31:49 GMT
I only have 1 unit of Initiates, so I'm not spamming them like crazy. I play her with Bastions and healing. Its good, but its not an S tier list. Its the Initiates that might take her over the top. But thats them, not her. And even with 5 Shield Guards in my list, she is still vulnerable to getting shot. Basically any thing can kill her if it gets through. Even a regular gunmage snipe shot can be deadly when you only have 4-5 HP.
Harbinger is A+. Initiates make an S tier list with her, but they do not magically take her up a tier nor should the existence of X justify Y getting nerfed. Clearly its the Initiates who are the problem.
So if they MUST nerf something, they should make Iniaites FA2. But really, they shouldn't nerf anything. Rather they should buff underpowered stuff that doesn't synergize with Harbinger so other lists become more attractive instead. Buff warjack related synergies. Give Feora 1+2 and Malekus an overhaul to make Fire damage great again.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 7, 2019 16:34:49 GMT
I can agree with some of that. She's definitely not S Tier in any non FM list because she's going to get shot up pretty trivially. I think Martyr pushes her to S tier in FM, though. If an initiate shield guards and gets 1 shot, she turns their 5 damage into D3 damage instead and leaves the shield guard alive for the next round.
With any other caster, it gets easier to shoot them up as the shield guards die. You might have 9 in Round 2, but 6 in Round 3, and 3 in Round 4, but with Harby, you have 9 as long as you can Martyr.
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petef
Read Page 5
Posts: 24
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Post by petef on Dec 7, 2019 18:04:54 GMT
If you weaken or limit the initiates, on it’s own, that’s not going to make anyone switch to a different caster to play FM as all casters are equally hit by that and Harby still runs them better than anyone else.
I think the WTC numbers in terms of Harby appearance and win rate speaks for it’s self really. I know team event and all that but at the same time all I’ve heard suggests people were at least aware that they needed an answer to Harby ands she was still very strong.
Probably is true that some of our weaker casters could do with some buffs to bring them up, but then every faction could say that, and some like trolls, legion or convergence have a much stronger case on that front than protectorate.
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Post by paradox on Dec 7, 2019 18:43:03 GMT
I can agree with some of that. She's definitely not S Tier in any non FM list because she's going to get shot up pretty trivially. I think Martyr pushes her to S tier in FM, though. If an initiate shield guards and gets 1 shot, she turns their 5 damage into D3 damage instead and leaves the shield guard alive for the next round. With any other caster, it gets easier to shoot them up as the shield guards die. You might have 9 in Round 2, but 6 in Round 3, and 3 in Round 4, but with Harby, you have 9 as long as you can Martyr. Its extremely easy to build her in EI with plenty of shield guards. So I dunno about that at all.
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snot
Light Addition
Posts: 63
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Post by snot on Dec 7, 2019 20:10:03 GMT
Initiates, archons and Champions with her is simply a braindead combo.
Archon goes easily to def 17 vs living, arm21 If u let the shieldguard die who took the important hit.
U dont even martyr that often anymore.
Maybe losing purification would help,but as mentioned biggest issue for menoth are the initiates.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 8, 2019 14:11:31 GMT
Its extremely easy to build her in EI with plenty of shield guards. So I dunno about that at all. Except you only get 2 free, as opposed to 9 free. Then 2 more is 9 points. Then it's Templars and Devouts. And the Infantry shield guards in EI are max ARM 18, can be knocked down, moved, pushed, slammed, thrown. To get the minimum of 9 shield guards in EI, after Warjack Points, and RQ points, it costs 27 points. It's really not comparable at all. I don't think Initiates are the issue here. They definitely make other casters playable in the theme. I don't think Harbinger is the issue outside of being with Initiates. I think it's a weird feedback synergy that there is no real way of properly nerfing without something being ruined.
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Post by paradox on Dec 8, 2019 16:09:46 GMT
Its extremely easy to build her in EI with plenty of shield guards. So I dunno about that at all. Except you only get 2 free, as opposed to 9 free. Then 2 more is 9 points. Then it's Templars and Devouts. And the Infantry shield guards in EI are max ARM 18, can be knocked down, moved, pushed, slammed, thrown. To get the minimum of 9 shield guards in EI, after Warjack Points, and RQ points, it costs 27 points. It's really not comparable at all. I don't think Initiates are the issue here. They definitely make other casters playable in the theme. I don't think Harbinger is the issue outside of being with Initiates. I think it's a weird feedback synergy that there is no real way of properly nerfing without something being ruined. I mean, sure, its not 9 free shield guards. But a warder, devout, and Rhoven is also plenty of shield guard. And each is a better quality model than an initiate, or even a whole unit. Further, Inhuman Resolve on the warder makes it alot better of a deterrant than initiates.
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Post by michael on Dec 8, 2019 16:50:43 GMT
Its extremely easy to build her in EI with plenty of shield guards. So I dunno about that at all. Except you only get 2 free, as opposed to 9 free. Then 2 more is 9 points. Then it's Templars and Devouts. And the Infantry shield guards in EI are max ARM 18, can be knocked down, moved, pushed, slammed, thrown. To get the minimum of 9 shield guards in EI, after Warjack Points, and RQ points, it costs 27 points. It's really not comparable at all. I don't think Initiates are the issue here. They definitely make other casters playable in the theme. I don't think Harbinger is the issue outside of being with Initiates. I think it's a weird feedback synergy that there is no real way of properly nerfing without something being ruined. Paradox beat me to it, but... How many shield guards do you need? Three or four is usually sufficient to discourage all but the most dedicated shooting list.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 9, 2019 2:11:59 GMT
Yeah, 3 or 4 lets her play into a lot, but 6+ allows her to play into our dedicated counter lists. That is a big deal. Like I said, she isn't OP alone, nor are the Initiates. They just support each other in a very big way.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 9, 2019 2:35:22 GMT
Which is why the only really acceptable nerf would be dropping their FA. Yeah, it would screw anybody who bought 3 units, but if they really care about balance that would be the path forward.
Besides its not like there aren't counters. In order for Harby to stay in range of those shield guards, all 9 initiates need to stay within 3" of her. That's... a very tight bunch of models that HAVE to stay close to each other. While they don't care about AOEs, tight packs of models give up board positioning and many other things as well.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 9, 2019 7:00:22 GMT
Yep, it's almost as if they're pretty okay and it's Harby that takes them over the top. 😉
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