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Post by sand20go on Aug 25, 2019 2:30:22 GMT
Local SR today. Did fine (1-1-and 1). Loss was the Grymkin (OW3) when I rolled poorly for feat tokens (I think if I get 5 I win....6 for sure).
But in all three game with Vlad2 I went DEEP into the clock on the turn I knew I was going to feat. Indeed, I found that once I had spent that time figuring it out I HAD to feat.....
Here was the issue really in all three games. Pushed doomies up hard these games. So I had a lot left for feat options. But spent a LOT of time trying to figure out the best ones to apparate with...
Anyone find a good way of quickly figuring that out - so that you apparate the right unit?
For those counting at home there are 4 threats
Normal doomies - 11
Normal Doomies in a unit that apparate 13
Feated doomis that don't apparate 14
Feated Doomies that do apparate 16
I guess one way would be to start backward and maybe even putting out some memory aides (how many are in 11...how many are in 13....ect...
But it is complicated when you are trying to figure out the ideal way to get the max number of doomies in warnoun or 2-3 heavies.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 26, 2019 1:23:36 GMT
sand20go , that’s a great question. About half the time, I find Vlad’s feat turn to be an exercise in assembling a Rube Goldberg Machine. Part of that is that’s is just so darn hard for your opponent to see all of the potential threat vectors. The flip side to that is it’s hard for you to see them too! I don’t think I have any advice you haven’t already figured out, except for maybe using moveline sticks. That, at least, makes measuring faster. My thought process usually goes something like this. 0. During my opponent’s turn, I’m thinking about whether or not I am going to feat, and if so what are my priority targets. 1. Is assassination viable? If so, what machinations do I need to go through to get as many doomreavers as possible to his caster? These are the scenarios that tend to occupy the most time since care needs to be taken to get the blocking models out of the way without blocking yourself. 2. If assassination isn’t viable, the turn goes much more quickly... Choose high priority targets which leave my doomreavrs in PITA spots, and then go. I don’t think there’s any magic to it, and the most helpful aspects are (a) using my opponents clock to work out a plan, and (b) using the moveline sticks (including the 14” one with a 2” widget) to plan out the bulk of my turn before I apparate. By the time I start apparating models, I have a plan. Hopefully someone else in this thread has some other better tactical advice! Edit: None of this advice means squat if you’re actually going to put all 60 doomreavers you own on the table at the same time!
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Post by sand20go on Aug 26, 2019 16:49:25 GMT
sand20go , that’s a great question. About half the time, I find Vlad’s feat turn to be an exercise in assembling a Rube Goldberg Machine. Part of that is that’s is just so darn hard for your opponent to see all of the potential threat vectors. The flip side to that is it’s hard for you to see them too! I don’t think I have any advice you haven’t already figured out, except for maybe using moveline sticks. That, at least, makes measuring faster. My thought process usually goes something like this. 0. During my opponent’s turn, I’m thinking about whether or not I am going to feat, and if so what are my priority targets. 1. Is assassination viable? If so, what machinations do I need to go through to get as many doomreavers as possible to his caster? These are the scenarios that tend to occupy the most time since care needs to be taken to get the blocking models out of the way without blocking yourself. 2. If assassination isn’t viable, the turn goes much more quickly... Choose high priority targets which leave my doomreavrs in PITA spots, and then go. I don’t think there’s any magic to it, and the most helpful aspects are (a) using my opponents clock to work out a plan, and (b) using the moveline sticks (including the 14” one with a 2” widget) to plan out the bulk of my turn before I apparate. By the time I start apparating models, I have a plan. Hopefully someone else in this thread has some other better tactical advice! Edit: None of this advice means squat if you’re actually going to put all 60 doomreavers you own on the table at the same time! As you note, the time suck is the potential assassination run. And you REALLY want to pick the right unit to apparate. Tinking some more I think the right approach is to ask: 1) "Am I going to check for assissination this turn"? Requires doing the math on a Warmachine caster and counting transfers for a Hordes." You need to make that decision before the end of their turn but toward the end cause you gotta see where their caster is and how many doomies you have left. If you know you are going for it (they are naked, they have 1 tranfers, they are in range of 14 doomies) then there isn't any problem spending 20 minutes figuring out everything. What you do NOT want to do is spend 15 and then say "well that won't work". So this is a rule about when it isn't crystal clear. 2) I THINK the way to avoid the tank (but please, critique) is asking the following..... A) How many are under 11 and how many are under 14? This is my baseline amount. If 6 or greater it doesn't matter. You don't NEED to apparate to gain threat max feated doomies onto target. Somehow note those 6 so you don't screw things up and then you can move onto thinking about charge angles, other targets, etc. B) If <6 then address for each unit how many are 14 to 16 and 13-11. Note the number for each unit. Sum...and that becomes the unit value. Assuming charge angles are all the same then which ever unit has the greatest value. greater is the one that you apparate. C) Double check your work. Make sure you are not missing something that gets screwy - like creating order of activation issues or blocking charge lanes. D) Now that you have the optimal apparate thing done apparate in a way that allows for maximum flexibility in facing - aka DON"T just do it hapazardly but apparate so that you have facings ideal so you can put the right thing in the right LOS. THat way when you feat and if you roll up just 4 you can move to "plan attrition" and abandon the assissination run and just go kill a lot of things. |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496 
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Post by Growl on Sept 2, 2019 17:24:15 GMT
Btw, what list are you using to run Vlad2 wolves? I could have sworn I saw it somewhere and liked it, but now I can’t find it. I think you had Victor in it? I ran this last night for the first time and it was ok outside of my own errors;
War Room Army
Khador - Vlad2 Wolves Obliv
Theme: Wolves of Winter
75 / 75 Army
Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27
- Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4
- Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
- Greylord Escort - PC: 0
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
- Greylord Escort - PC: 3
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
THEME: Wolves of Winter
Like I said, it was pretty good. Because of screwing up the requisition choices I shorted myself on 1 point and that’s why I couldn’t figure out how to put Victor in, but I figured out my error now and so I can, but not sure if I should? I think three jacks spreads out what I can do, etc., but I think Victor’s gun could do work while waiting for the lines to engage, and likewise he can do a lot in melee if needed. So, what are your guys’ thoughts?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 2, 2019 20:35:37 GMT
Btw, what list are you using to run Vlad2 wolves? I could have sworn I saw it somewhere and liked it, but now I can’t find it. I think you had Victor in it? I ran this last night for the first time and it was ok outside of my own errors; War Room Army Khador - Vlad2 Wolves Obliv Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 0 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 THEME: Wolves of Winter Like I said, it was pretty good. Because of screwing up the requisition choices I shorted myself on 1 point and that’s why I couldn’t figure out how to put Victor in, but I figured out my error now and so I can, but not sure if I should? I think three jacks spreads out what I can do, etc., but I think Victor’s gun could do work while waiting for the lines to engage, and likewise he can do a lot in melee if needed. So, what are your guys’ thoughts? Sand and I will disagree on this, but I don’t like Victor in most Wolves lists, the primary reason being that Wolves’ primary win condition is Scenario and if you’re only taking Victor than that dictates where your caster needs to be in order to score two rectangle zones. If I were playing a fun game, and not packing for a tournament (say, playing the Oblivion narrative, for example) then yeah...it’s great. But I really want at least two jacks so candidly I like your thinking. Most folks around here will also tell you that Wolves lists don’t get good use out of melee jacks. That also hasn’t been my experience. If you don’t happen to win top of 2, then your melee jacks (at the bottom of 2, or the top of 3, or even the top of 2 if you brought Strakhov) are seeing all sorts of play. That said, with your list, I dislike on general list building principle that you’re playing a point down. |
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Post by sand20go on Sept 3, 2019 0:35:58 GMT
I am starting to slowly move away from Victor. As you note, it gives you just one jack.....a great one but just one. Otherwise your list is my list - 4 units of doomies, 2 with escorts, KEliminators. One thing I am going to play around with is this conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1S777pkYkTnj8h8hnf89nf89nfnfnhchKhador [Theme] Wolves of Winter [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Mad Dog [8] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Greylord Outriders (max) [17] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Provides, I think, greater scenario presence. Maddog can trample with Assail 11 inches which is really nice on Turn 1. Destroyer there to snipe out pesky solos that really need to die so you can play this list for what it wants to play as - scenario (as noted above). Point down (but what are you going to do ;-) One thing to consider is the adjunct. It is "nice" to upkeep 2 spells for free but I am not sure this list, in this variant, really cares. Get assail out turn one to leverage the board presence and then drop it. He can always trample 9 the following turn if need be. _IF_ you dropped him you could get either the hermit or, who might be even better, Gudrun. Probably do some field testing over the next few weeks. PS. I think with this list more than the Victor you can effectively opt to go second and in a lot of the live scenarios put a ton of pressure on your opponent. The Mad dog is this really irritating 8 point speed demon - you can't really afford to ignore him but you don't want to put that much resources into an 8 point point. Meanwhile everything else is just working to get into scenario scoring position. Try to get a 3-0 lead and then cruise to victory the following turn. |
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Post by auraco on Sept 3, 2019 2:51:20 GMT
I really think you want the Adjunct for the guidance on the destroyer. The destroyer in wolves with easy guidance and easy puppet master gives a much needed spot removal tool to the list. The destroyer is also perfect for camping square zones while still doing work.
I start pretty much all my wolves battlegroup with at least one destroyer, and I’ve never come to regret that choice
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Post by borderprince on Sept 3, 2019 3:08:38 GMT
I really think you want the Adjunct for the guidance on the destroyer. The destroyer in wolves with easy guidance and easy puppet master gives a much needed spot removal tool to the list. The destroyer is also perfect for camping square zones while still doing work. What he said. If you're serious about scenario, you need a way to make sure that your Mad Dog you've sent off into a zone isn't stymied by that Feralgeist or Gremlin Swarm which just keeps contesting and you can't deal with. You could send over some Doomreavers or the Outriders, but then that 2-3 point solo is doing a great job of pulling units away from where they want them to be.
Finally, someone listens! Just don't start getting ambitious about what it can do.
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Post by harrysan on Sept 3, 2019 18:55:15 GMT
I had dojo'd this list a while ago before I got distracted by OldWitch2 in Wolves:
War Room Army
Khador - Vlad2 The Dark Wolves
Theme: Wolves of Winter
75 / 75 Army 0 / 40 Specialist
Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27
- Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4
- Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
- Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7
- Thrall Warrior
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
- Greylord Escort - PC: 3
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
- Greylord Escort - PC: 3
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17
Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0
THEME: Wolves of Winter
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GENERATED : 09/03/2019 14:41:24
BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
It's got a little bit of everything. For the battlegroup, as has been said the Destroyer + Adjunct has been great for spot removal and chip damage while holding a zone before committing. Devestator loves Assail and can run off and do its thing after getting it cast on him. Two free upkeeps on Vlad let's him get 2 Wind Blasts out comfortably or leaves more focus for boosts.
I've found the 2 + 2 setup for Escort/no Escort gives enough flexibility without wasting abilities or points. A small trick is that Sac Pawn is not limited to DRs in the Escort's unit but can be from one of the naked units. Can help make sure the unit that needs pathfinder doesn't get it sniped out or if no tough is more important than an extra doom reaver.
Alexia2 provides a great toolbox. There are plenty of DRs who are expected to die on the way in to fuel her, and the thralls are almost-reavers for multiple tasks. They are great at finishing pieces off that maybe you didn't get the rolls on, or be lame blockers, or contest scenario. Also due to the long range on move-place-charge it keeps assassination pretty live even outside feat turn.
Spray ponies with HoF are self explanatory. Double Kolduns as well. I still really like having the toolbox of the Ternion but I found that 2 units sometimes gets wasted and maybe just runs around putting up clouds that don't do much.
The entire list is built around everything having its use without waste, but enough redundancy that a couple missing items aren't going to derail completely.
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