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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Apr 21, 2017 1:22:19 GMT
You know, I see where PP is coming from. The Rube Goldberg machine of pre-planning turns just kills the flow of the game and can be frustrating to watch. At the same time, placing table markers is important and is a result of the "Measure anything anytime" rule central to Mk3, so I see the point of the outcry from the community.
There has to be a compromise there somewhere, I just hope it can be found and that it works for the majority of people.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 21, 2017 1:41:39 GMT
I can understand that but its a all or nothing sorta deal in my mind.
Either the game is about guesstimating threat ranges, or its about exact measurement and threats. Anything in-between will require pages of rules to differentiate.
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Xarlaxas
Junior Strategist
Hoards models more than he plays.
Posts: 192
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Post by Xarlaxas on Apr 21, 2017 1:55:36 GMT
Jesus, that's a really lengthy description of their intent. . . .
I think it would be simpler for them to say "you can use any amount of widgets/measuring doo-dads you want to measure one activation, then get rid of it all after you've decided to do it or not."
Another option, possibly the "nuclear" option: you can pre-measure anything any-time, on your clock. No measuring during your opponent's clock time unless it's to confirm something with them.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 21, 2017 2:34:02 GMT
I don't think the premeasurement stuff should even be in the 'rules'. I think it should be "You can only have x pre-measurements in play unless your opponent gives you permission to have more" and then put it under sportsmanship instead of rules. That's really where it probably should be, since it's really not a matter of gameplay so much as courtesy and comfort.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Apr 21, 2017 3:04:36 GMT
Here's a suggestion I liked: Basically restrict marker placement to A) Active player only and B) During a model/unit's activation, and at end of activation remove all markers from the board.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 21, 2017 4:58:52 GMT
While it stops the Rube Goldberg assassinations, those are not as common as other impacted items: - Perfect AOE placements (e.g. from Trenchers). Now much more difficult - Noting the threat range of your opponent's models. Still good, but only can use 1 template, limiting any other templates you might want to use or threat ranges around the board - Running a unit forward: current rule allow you to move them forward, then shift them around to avoid things like Blast damage. With only 1 proxy base allowed, you once you settle on an action, you're pretty much locked, no rearranging afterward.
I'm sure there are many more examples of very benign uses of premeasuring that are now illegal.
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Post by nightflier on Apr 21, 2017 5:29:22 GMT
I think most people are missing some of the intention on this. Yes it's to make the game better looking and what not. But I think it's also to force you to commit to your choices. The idea for premeasuring was to remove "gotcha's" that veterans could use and was one of the hardest parts of the game for new players to learn. With premeasurement in its current unlimited state, that accually adds a bit of it back in. If you think your opponent made a very small positioning error, there is nothing stopping you from checking to see just how much advantage you can take before you change your plans. Now if you see a mistake, you can make general measurements with a tape measure, but if want try it out, you HAVE to commit models to it. Forcing you to decide on whether or not to want to see if you can capitalize on it or continue on with plans as made.
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Post by Morganstern on Apr 21, 2017 10:28:32 GMT
I personally like the idea. If I were getting into Warmachine now and saw the kind of pre-measuring shenanigans that have been going on recently I would probably walk away
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 21, 2017 12:20:32 GMT
I don't have their perspective on how it's used. Since Mk3 I've only played on Vassal, which makes it dead easy to both clutter and un-clutter the table repeatedly. They said that they never wanted pre-measuring to be used to plot out an entire turn, and they want people to commit to actions on models earlier. I think the comment made was "Pre-measuring was meant to check whether Ruin would succeed at his charge, not whether Ruin could succeed a charge and be within Butcher's control area when Butcher is at a new location". There's something about planning out a whole turn for maximum safety they don't like, and I have to agree... watching people measure out every threat range you have and then sit just outside it may be tactically superior, but I haven't enjoyed playing at all since this practice started. The problem is, as noxious as that is, you can't separate it from unlimited pre-measuring. All you can affect is how cumbersome and un-intuitive it's going to be to plot out that turn, but people will still find a way to plot out their turns.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 21, 2017 12:48:10 GMT
There's something about planning out a whole turn for maximum safety they don't like, and I have to agree... watching people measure out every threat range you have and then sit just outside it may be tactically superior, but I haven't enjoyed playing at all since this practice started. That is still easily doable under the rule, fyi.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Apr 21, 2017 12:49:05 GMT
I'd doubtful this rule is going to survive with the amount of battle reports I've read over on the CID where the players just abandon playing by it because of how inconvenient it was. If PP is adamant about keeping measuring restrictions a part of Steamroller it's going to need a lot of work, because while the intention is good, the current implementation kinda blows.
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Post by malnorma on Apr 21, 2017 12:57:13 GMT
The problem is, as noxious as that is, you can't separate it from unlimited pre-measuring. All you can affect is how cumbersome and un-intuitive it's going to be to plot out that turn, but people will still find a way to plot out their turns. Probably not, since if you attach limits it's no longer unlimited. You can, however, separate unhappy players from the game. My favourite CID quote today is this one, where a lead designer inadvertently admits to having basically zero foresight:
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Post by malnorma on Apr 21, 2017 13:08:04 GMT
That is still easily doable under the rule, fyi. Maybe, I'm not really commenting on how effective their attempts might be.
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 21, 2017 13:12:17 GMT
I, for one welcome the chance to weaken gunlines. I'm not exactly what one might call a good player, and I cannot into shooting no matter how hard I try (reason why I dropped Menoth). It's not fun having to chase around models who stay just out of my threat range, and I'm not of the crowd that lies or deliberately keeps info to themselves to make their threat ranges seem shorter.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Apr 21, 2017 13:19:29 GMT
It's not fun having to chase around models who stay just out of my threat range, and I'm not of the crowd that lies or deliberately keeps info to themselves to make their threat ranges seem shorter. I hope you don't play with people like those who keep information secret in what is supposed to be an open-information game. Not only is it a dickish move, but also against the rules.
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