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Post by netdragon on Apr 17, 2019 13:31:21 GMT
Model diversity is at an all time high across the player base, for sure. The fact that a couple of casters have not been dominant for the current duration is already a dramatic improvement to mk2. Of course, model diversity can be at an all time high and still people can feel pigeonholed into certain things at certain times due to current competitive environment and list building restrictions put in place by themes.
I don't think that model diversity is what we were talking originally, but having a better list-building format that could reduce the list-chicken problem of Steamroller.
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Post by slaughtersun on Apr 17, 2019 13:50:52 GMT
I don't like themes in general. I enjoy picking up all my toys and come up with the most weird/broken/unsual synergies I can get.
However I understand the need for themes as far as game balance is concerned vs the fluffy mk2 approach that either were duds or outright broken (machinations of shadow, body & soul, MMM and EE, etc).
At least in mk3 the message is clear: themes provide competitive and balancing advantages over nom themes.
Ofc not all themes are balanced equally but i think this is more a case of the community getting what they wished for: people cried that only a few favtions had themes and PP dumped a bunch of yet-to-go-through-CiD themes on us just to quiet the voices. I often wonder how RoW or CotD will look like once they go through CID...
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Post by squighopper on Apr 17, 2019 13:52:44 GMT
I never understood the reason behind free solos/units in themes. From a design perspective it creates a huge problem of points being meaningless. How to balance a powerful solo if it costs 0 to include in a theme?
A much better solution would be to offer X free points that could be used. For example, if I got "4 free points", I could used it on a 4pt solo or two 2pt solos.
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Post by jonnyboy on Apr 17, 2019 14:28:55 GMT
I am 100% on board for removal of free points. Your decision is now based on synergy and what raw benefits restricting your selection do for you. I wish PP would review a change to themes like this.
List building becomes way more interesting. LOTF and solos like him or ones underpowered are put into perspective.
This would really showcase poorly designed themes as their popularity and effectiveness would drop. Jaws of the wolf is a good example.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 17, 2019 14:46:59 GMT
And if you want to say that the game is balanced at 75 points + free models... Well, then raise it up to 85 or 95 points + Battlegroup. Not all free solos are created equal after all, and that doesn't even consider the fact that Skorne Themes offer free artillery, Warbeasts, and small units besides solos (depending on the Theme).
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 17, 2019 15:45:43 GMT
Not all free solos are created equal after all, and that doesn't even consider the fact that Skorne Themes offer free artillery, Warbeasts, and small units besides solos (depending on the Theme). I don't think people give this enough credit. When I play in Bones of Orboros, I typically get a pair of stoneshapers and a blackclad for my free points. In black industries I get shooty arcnodes instead! In Dev Host I can get LotF, a Whitemane and a wolf-rider! In Primal Terrors I get Hellmouths for firetruck's sake! Clearly these things are not like unto each other, in fact they're all over the place, and again just removing free points neatly removes this silliness.
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 17, 2019 19:32:35 GMT
I don't like themes in general. I enjoy picking up all my toys and come up with the most weird/broken/unsual synergies I can get. However I understand the need for themes as far as game balance is concerned vs the fluffy mk2 approach that either were duds or outright broken (machinations of shadow, body & soul, MMM and EE, etc). At least in mk3 the message is clear: themes provide competitive and balancing advantages over nom themes. Ofc not all themes are balanced equally but i think this is more a case of the community getting what they wished for: people cried that only a few favtions had themes and PP dumped a bunch of yet-to-go-through-CiD themes on us just to quiet the voices. I often wonder how RoW or CotD will look like once they go through CID...
Themes weren't helped by how badly botched the roll-out was.
--They're an optional and fluffy way to play certain lists. How about this one, which reflects the mercenary armies that showed up in this novel?
--Here are some themes. What do you mean, they're playing Winterguard as a pure jack list?
--Here are more themes. If you're not in a favoured faction or your collection doesn't have a theme yet, enjoy playing 15+ points down for the next few months.
--Here's Irregulars. What's a theme? --Fine, have the themes. Turns out they're all so good that you pretty much have to play in theme, yet not even vaguely balanced against each other.
It feels pretty clear in hindsight that themes were meant to be an integral part of Mk3, but weren't ready for the release--and the slow release just ended up annoying a lot of people.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 17, 2019 21:48:13 GMT
WMH list writing is so restrictive and bland that they may as well just prescribe lists for you when you pick certain themes. Warmachine is at a point where due to the sheer amount of models available for the big factions, having an open ended List Building policy is a nightmare for balance and new product design. We have 2 business viable options. Either we: 1.- Accept Themes as a measure of managing balance and design, and be grateful we get to keep all our models, and tolerate the List Building Restrictions. Or 2.- Open up List Building, do away with Themes, but accept that PP will have to discontinue a big chunk of options in order to manage balance and design. There is no business viable way that PP can support completely open Lists, not cut any Legacy SKUs, balance all the possible permutations, and still keep adding new releases. Free Points are nothing more than a carrot dangled in front of players in order to get the vast majority of people playing Themes. With this PP should be able to ignore balancing Non-Theme options and concentrate on a holistic "Army Level" balance instead of balancing at the model level with all its permutations.
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Post by dogganmguest on Apr 17, 2019 21:52:27 GMT
It feels pretty clear in hindsight that themes were meant to be an integral part of Mk3, but weren't ready for the release--and the slow release just ended up annoying a lot of people. Ah, so what they really meant by "we've been playtesting this stuff for years" was "you'll be playtesting this stuff for years".
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Post by netdragon on Apr 17, 2019 22:03:49 GMT
WMH list writing is so restrictive and bland that they may as well just prescribe lists for you when you pick certain themes. Warmachine is at a point where due to the sheer amount of models available for the big factions, having an open ended List Building policy is a nightmare for balance and new product design. We have 2 business viable options. Either we: 1.- Accept Themes as a measure of managing balance and design, and be grateful we get to keep all our models, and tolerate the List Building Restrictions. Or 2.- Open up List Building, do away with Themes, but accept that PP will have to discontinue a big chunk of options in order to manage balance and design. There is no business viable way that PP can support completely open Lists, not cut any Legacy SKUs, balance all the possible permutations, and still keep adding new releases. Free Points are nothing more than a carrot dangled in front of players in order to get the vast majority of people playing Themes. With this PP should be able to ignore balancing Non-Theme options and concentrate on a holistic "Army Level" balance instead of balancing at the model level with all its permutations.
PP should have created subfactions instead of themes, and treat them like limited armies, which are better designed and balanced IMHO.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 17, 2019 23:52:45 GMT
Themes weren't helped by how badly botched the roll-out was. Oddly enough, the first Theme can be found in each Battlebox Rulebook. The reason why? Two specific Warcasters cannot legally be in a list unless a Theme says they can. They are literally the only two Battlegroup Controllers with this rule, and they still can only be taken in that one Theme. They can't even be taken in Irregulars, the most open Theme of the 'Faction'.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Apr 18, 2019 8:02:55 GMT
Monsterpocalypse was a mistake.
It is the same thin that killed wizkids.
Right after mageknight 2.0 changed the the game then moved to selling rubbish like sports clix and heroclix.
Mk died, heroclix is on it’s last legs. Things change.
the Doomtrain is constant.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Apr 18, 2019 8:16:24 GMT
Yup, it's very obvious that FLGS aren't really carrying PPs stuff much these days. true First thing new management needs to do is to get the FLGS ordering their stuff again, and I think that means sunsetting a lot of legacy stuff that doesn't move (and giving us a new streamlined edition from the ground up). warmachine "end times" would break my heart. I hope we don't go into the childish rubbish presented with that latest sidegame.... Im unsure how PP will get FLGS to order more warmahordes. The 2 stores here have tons of old stuff which dont move even with heavy discount. The store owner is really unhappy with PP after PP went digital no card no books, after they ordered it. Command books are all around in the shop collecting dust. And then the direct sale of heavy discounted mystery box which made it even more difficult for the store. The store is now direct ordering from distributor what warmachine you order in the shop, but they are not stocking up on any warmahordes, even the newest hotness. The only thing i can see is new games ala riotquest or warmachine 4 ed being so good and in high demand that the store owner just have to commit to ordering more than the minimum. Some of the same happened with the store towards GW, when GW was into their dark ages and a little hostile against independent stores competing against their own store. It took years for GW to build up the trust and shelfspace. This, full on digital was a bad move, i just got done printing and binding the latest book version. I have to go print my cards again(got sick, had a second kid etc) and it is a huge amount of catch up work(I print and laminate). I’d rather pay for cards, what happened to a print service? By the time pp reverses this decision it may be too late imo. And i have no channel to contact them. Locally we are trying to revive the game but telling a new player they need an ipad to play is a paywall and frankly, i need my phone charged at all time tor medical reasons, should my dr need to contact me. So take the dad and medical stuff and call it a new player with limited budget. it is overwhelming! You mean they cannot sit down and play? they have to go home, asemble models and print stuff(hopefully the right stuff? Warmachine mkIII is IMO(NOT GETTING INTO IT) a better game but their decisions have added barriers of entry. Despite all the cry, if I wanted to play AOS or 40k, or ANY, OTHER GAME. I can sit down and build then get a "battlebox" equivalent of said game in. now with warmachine, models do not even come with cards. Sure the cards might be dated and no good for tournaments but at least people can play. How can you promote that? Futher problems: nuking the forums was dumb. people just setup shop and doomtrain here now. FB is dying I am one of many who disabled my account. So now what? they have no community? killing pressgangers was a "SMART MOVE" also. yeah, enthusaistic people who basically volunteer their time to run tournaments. DUMB. I don't think it is unrecoverable I just have some anxiety. Try to not let the doomtrainers get to you though, internet people are notoriously negative and the dunning-kruegar effect is too high in wargamer egos..
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Post by jonnyboy on Apr 18, 2019 11:23:23 GMT
Ill be one to say i prefer the App. Most people have phones now, it's a 5 buck app. Amazon has cheap ipads for 70$ ish, and you're playing a wargame that costs upwards of 300$ just to get in to. Wall chargers and portable chargers are a thing too.
Not having to wait, literally years, for army updates (grey knights or any other warhammer faction) is fantastic. If that means digital, im all for it. The game is more alive now. People get too hung up on having physical copies. They want to pay 100-150$ for cards and a book, but talk about the app being a barrier? I dont understand. Complaining about printing cards in a hobby where you spend months and months assembling and painting?
Making mountains out of mole hills. I will agree PP needs to slow it's roll on new models and focus on fixing everything that's outdated. Helping stores push older content would be nice.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Apr 18, 2019 12:51:26 GMT
Ill be one to say i prefer the App. Most people have phones now, it's a 5 buck app. Amazon has cheap ipads for 70$ ish, and you're playing a wargame that costs upwards of 300$ just to get in to. Wall chargers and portable chargers are a thing too. Not having to wait, literally years, for army updates (grey knights or any other warhammer faction) is fantastic. If that means digital, im all for it. The game is more alive now. People get too hung up on having physical copies. They want to pay 100-150$ for cards and a book, but talk about the app being a barrier? I dont understand. Complaining about printing cards in a hobby where you spend months and months assembling and painting? Making mountains out of mole hills. I will agree PP needs to slow it's roll on new models and focus on fixing everything that's outdated. Helping stores push older content would be nice. for gw i use thier digital codices. Does not mean they are faster. Steelheads still have wrong versions on the digital cards same for nomad mangler ettc... Because i spend time painting and assembling. Again, before at least you could play, i dunno if the new battleboxes actually include cards or not. I don’t do half-assed(don’t know a better term) cards. I glue and laminate the cards in such away that they are solid. People print and throw the card prints in sleeves where they slide around and thus move damage marks(which is why i laminate). I bought a really nice powerstrip for my lgs to have plugins enough for people’s phones because he had limited available outlets. Even that being said we have had to stop a game many times while someone charged thier phone Also cheapest ipad is 93 not counting shipping on amazon
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