fanguad
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by fanguad on Mar 7, 2019 14:04:26 GMT
Dear people who are upset at literally everything: I think it's cool that PP is trying to make a fluffy theme. Yes, there are probably OP interactions as-is, but CID is literally for testing them. And unlike the first time I used 'literally', the second time was accurate.
I wasn't particularly interested in Infernals before I saw that theme, but if that theme sticks in some form, I might buy into that faction in a minor way. So good job, PP.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Mar 7, 2019 15:19:17 GMT
The theme makes sense in a fluff way. It also makes sense if they're trying to market Infernals to veteran players that already own those factions. What doesn't make sense is how PP initially said the mini-factions were made for beginners to get into the game while these factions also introduce rules that are new to everyone.
I'm happy that PP sort of made their intentions known on this one. Break the theme, report the battles, and they'll make it better.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Mar 7, 2019 15:54:09 GMT
The theme does not make sense from a fluff perspective. Many of the warcasters are known already not to be infernalists. We have many stories from their points of view and in some cases entire novels. Old Witch especially makes no sense as an infernalist giving that her entire recent arc is in opposition to them. Additionally, why are human mercenaries arbitrarily to a man NOT infernalists while near the entire military of the two most major states and the military branch of Ord's elite order are entirely corrupted? Mercenaries even have had the only representation of infernals on the tabletop since Mk1 and you can't even take that unit in theme. Garbage to say that theme is meant to be fluffy.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Mar 7, 2019 16:28:24 GMT
They may not be Infernalist, but they still have a debt to pay and the alternative price is their entire nation being ruined.
Old Witch doesn't make sense but she's also a very mysterious character, so maybe she's pulling a Dr. Strange and letting them in because she sees that as the only way to defeat them.
We can agree to disagree, much as it seems we will, though I'll choose not to call your speculation and opinion garbage, unlike how you did mine.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 7, 2019 16:37:52 GMT
My main concern is not the theme. Its the Cultist Band.
I guarantee, every Infernal list will simply have 1 unit of cultists in it whose 'soul' job will be to sit on the back edge of the board and be a completely safe Essence battery. 7 points gets you full Essence for the whole game.
The Cultist Band at the very least needs to be forced further up the field to give Essence, otherwise there will be no real weaknesses for the faction.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 7, 2019 17:12:36 GMT
My main concern is not the theme. Its the Cultist Band. I guarantee, every Infernal list will simply have 1 unit of cultists in it whose 'soul' job will be to sit on the back edge of the board and be a completely safe Essence battery. 7 points gets you full Essence for the whole game. The Cultist Band at the very least needs to be forced further up the field to give Essence, otherwise there will be no real weaknesses for the faction. And then u ambush something and kill them all.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Mar 7, 2019 17:33:19 GMT
The Cultist Band at the very least needs to be forced further up the field to give Essence, otherwise there will be no real weaknesses for the faction. I feel like the suggestion to make the collection within CMD is good. And maybe even within CMD and LOS, so they have to be up front but not too exposed that they're a liability. I bet they'll generally be as hard to kill as Choir or Beast Handlers.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 7, 2019 18:27:05 GMT
My main concern is not the theme. Its the Cultist Band. I guarantee, every Infernal list will simply have 1 unit of cultists in it whose 'soul' job will be to sit on the back edge of the board and be a completely safe Essence battery. 7 points gets you full Essence for the whole game. The Cultist Band at the very least needs to be forced further up the field to give Essence, otherwise there will be no real weaknesses for the faction. And then u ambush something and kill them all. They will be right in the center of the board. If you can force the master to a side that MIGHT be an option - but not really for the essence 9 caster who will have the control range of a god. Moreover, the faction really isn't designed for the long game ANYWAY. With Tithe not paid on Turn 1 in the actual Infernal theme you really are looking at needing to keep, at max, 6 cultists alive. That doesn't even account for cutting for essence or sacrificing admittedly very good solos in the end game after they largely have done their job.
You already are seeing in the Battle reports concern about this - it feels for most just a "tax" and that while cool on paper (and it is VERY cool on paper) it suffers from the same problem that Lukas does - a risk/reward mechanic is quickly (like in 24 hours) broken by the community who figures out how to maximize reward and drive risk down to practically zero.
Whether it is making cultists worth just 2-3 essence each; or requiring sacrifices to be done in command rather than control the key thing is to try to avoid the focus battery issues and make it a viable strategy to take out the clockwork.
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Mar 7, 2019 19:23:49 GMT
My main concern is not the theme. Its the Cultist Band. 100% agreed, same here. Either change the name, or give the models instruments.
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Post by davycannonhound on Mar 7, 2019 19:54:45 GMT
Seems like anything that denies them souls kind of kicks them in the teeth a bit too. Legion beast lists' time to truly shine?
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Post by trollsareblue on Mar 7, 2019 20:14:19 GMT
From looking at the CID forums, people are generally refusing to playtest HoD until PP fixes it. I applaud them.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Mar 7, 2019 20:36:09 GMT
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Post by mydnight on Mar 7, 2019 21:28:33 GMT
My main concern is not the theme. Its the Cultist Band. 100% agreed, same here. Either change the name, or give the models instruments. If PP modelled them with instruments we probably would have forgiven them for HoD
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Post by mydnight on Mar 7, 2019 21:33:41 GMT
I think the most offensive thing is that the theme is straight better than Cygnar or khador themes. So you can take 2 almost unrestricted Cygnar lists and call it an infernal pairing without an infernal model in sight. It shores a lot of Cygnar weakness (weakness to shooting, no tough multiwound infantry) while increasing their list flexibility. With the abundance of magic attacks in Infernals, the +2 damage from Falk can also be applied indiscriminately. While the best units in each theme (lances, trench longgunners, trenchers) can be combined with the best solos (squire, jr, caine jr, falk). This isn't even accounting for the fact that your second list can be for an entirely different faction. Don't get me wrong I LOVE this theme because Im a jank monkey and will basically play cygnar through it if it goes through but just because I love it doesn't mean I have serious concerns about its affect on the game.
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Post by mydnight on Mar 7, 2019 22:16:24 GMT
"We are pulling Hearts of Darkness from the CID.
I'm going to explain why, and what the plan will be going forward.
So, first, our next CID following Infernals (date unannounced) will be our general Oblivion CID (sorry, not going to tell you what is in int!) We're going to push back Hearts of Darkness to that CID.
Hearts of Darkness was designed with elements of the other Oblivion releases as a foundation for setting up the concept of Hearts of Darkness, and was not originally slated for this CID. We decided to push up Hearts of Darkness to the actual Infernal CID, but we recognize now that was a mistake. Hearts of Darkness is dominating the conversation about Infernals and detracting from the actual playtesting of the faction overall and the theme we want to focus on, Dark Legacy.
So with that said, effective immediately, Hearts of Darkness will not be eligible for question, comment, or feedback in this CID, and it will be pulled from the rules pdfs. In addition, we will be heavily reviewing Hearts of Darkness internally, so that we have have a more structured, concise theme force to deliver to the community in the Oblivion CID.
We know there has been a lot of talk about Hearts of Darkness all around the community, and we know that there are members of the community who are extremely excited for it, and those which dread the overwhelming possibilities it allows. We think we will be able to deliver a better theme force in the Oblivion CID, along with it making more contextual sense, and also focus community feedback for the Infernal CID by doing this.
Thank you all for your patience and passion on this project."
Well done, PP. Looking forward to the Oblivion CiD (I suspect in the fluff some casters will fall to the infernal side of things)
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