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Post by Charistoph on Jan 20, 2019 19:29:41 GMT
Mercenaries and Minions have come some way in Mk 3 getting rid of Contracts and Alliances in their general builds, but did they go far enough?
What if the only restriction for a Mercenary Warcaster or Minion Warlock to take a Minion unit or Mercenary unit was Theme, and had no connection with the Mercenary/Minion tags on their card? Would that change your build considerations at all?
To be clear, I mean like Magnus1 having a Gatorman Posse in his pre-Theme list or Barnabas1 having Idrians in a pre-Theme list. Current Theme restrictions would still be in play (so no Gatormen Posses in Irregulars).
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Post by gobber on Jan 20, 2019 22:11:33 GMT
Eww no. However, I'd absolutely be down for a fluff appropriate mixed theme or two. I could definitely see cephalyx enslaving minions; and there's some logic to brigands/razorbacks working for mercs in exchange for weaponry (less so for the bonegrinder/slaughterhouser types). Constance running around with posse or calaban employing precursors seems deeply wrong though.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 21, 2019 0:48:18 GMT
So you think doing this is horrible, even when there would be zero changes in what you can take in the Themes?
The army would be marked by who the Warcaster/Warlock is, and run from there.
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Post by gobber on Jan 21, 2019 2:55:14 GMT
So you think doing this is horrible, even when there would be zero changes in what you can take in the Themes? The army would be marked by who the Warcaster/Warlock is, and run from there. I'm not sure I'd use the word horrible since I like the idea of additional mixing. Doing so in a selective manner by introducing new themes just makes far more sense to me as it minimizes balance/designspace concerns, and the themes could bring along a "counts as friendly faction" rule, in contrast to running a bunch of largely unbuffable minions in an out of theme merc list or vice versa. More fluffy themes is also a plus in my book
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 21, 2019 4:28:08 GMT
I'm not sure I'd use the word horrible since I like the idea of additional mixing. Doing so in a selective manner by introducing new themes just makes far more sense to me as it minimizes balance/designspace concerns, and the themes could bring along a "counts as friendly faction" rule, in contrast to running a bunch of largely unbuffable minions in an out of theme merc list or vice versa. More fluffy themes is also a plus in my book I took the "horrible" from your reaction (eww, no).
I do think you misunderstand in that they would all be Friendly Faction to each other in this change, so that wouldn't be a concern.
However, you are correct in that it would be more efficient at present to consider a mixed Theme at present than reorganizing the whole set up.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Jan 21, 2019 10:41:45 GMT
On one hand it sounds like a huge change, on the other it looks like it wont matter because of themes.
In theory there could be a few combos that are so broken that they're worth breaking theme for or a theme that with bad wording that opens up for all units/solos.
I dont see the point though. As already mentioned, creating a mixed theme isnt a problem.
At this point PP could dissolve all the factions and say that you can only build lists via themes. The only thing necessary would be ruling that theme models always count as friendly faction.
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2019 17:19:24 GMT
If the net impact of this change is zero, why bother making the change?
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Jan 21, 2019 18:47:31 GMT
I think minions has the right idea honestly, and the little bit of overlap between the two factions is about all the overlap I’d like to see. Honestly I often find that mercs are to disjointed at present, and it’d be better I think if they were tweaked to be very distinct, separate sub groups. With a more restricted overlap theme like what minions has. Rather than having steelheads in three themes, and taking Cygnar units, and protectorate units, and Crucible units, and so on, I’d rather mercs have very little over lap and more focus on our own things rather than “play mercs, but use other people’s models” or “like playing dwarves / pirates / steelheads? Better mix them all together if you wanna be good, even if you don’t like them all”. So no, I don’t want to see more overlap and mixing of an already bloated and mixed up faction.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Jan 22, 2019 19:16:07 GMT
I would not want that to happen, 100% due to the fact that balancing new models for either Mercs or Minions would now take even longer and you'd have to consider how they interact with both focus and fury. It's a game design nightmare.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 22, 2019 23:20:48 GMT
I would not want that to happen, 100% due to the fact that balancing new models for either Mercs or Minions would now take even longer and you'd have to consider how they interact with both focus and fury. It's a game design nightmare.
How so?
Balancing is by Theme, apparently, that will not have largely changed.
Focus, Fury, and who can be controlled by whom will not have changed, so I don't understand how interacting with both Focus and Fury would be a problem.
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Post by fallenexile on Jan 23, 2019 17:03:20 GMT
I would not want that to happen, 100% due to the fact that balancing new models for either Mercs or Minions would now take even longer and you'd have to consider how they interact with both focus and fury. It's a game design nightmare.
How so?
Balancing is by Theme, apparently, that will not have largely changed.
Focus, Fury, and who can be controlled by whom will not have changed, so I don't understand how interacting with both Focus and Fury would be a problem.
So.... What would mixing them together actually change?
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 23, 2019 17:56:55 GMT
How so?
Balancing is by Theme, apparently, that will not have largely changed.
Focus, Fury, and who can be controlled by whom will not have changed, so I don't understand how interacting with both Focus and Fury would be a problem.
So.... What would mixing them together actually change? Only those times when you aren't playing in Theme, either because of Rules or because of Whim.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Jan 23, 2019 19:24:36 GMT
So.... What would mixing them together actually change? Only those times when you aren't playing in Theme, either because of Rules or because of Whim. This seems a bit circular. "The balancing wouldn't matter because balancing is done in theme" (don't agree, but that is the assertion you made). "So what would it change?"
"Playing them out of theme." < Which reintroduces the issue of balancing.
Thematically, it makes no sense. Release schedule wise, it makes it punishingly difficult to balance. Player wise, it means we have to buy even more stuff. I can't see a single reason why it would be positive for anyone involved except for people who already have both and have a strange Helga X Kell Bailoch ship going.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 23, 2019 19:51:40 GMT
Only those times when you aren't playing in Theme, either because of Rules or because of Whim. This seems a bit circular. "The balancing wouldn't matter because balancing is done in theme" (don't agree, but that is the assertion you made). "So what would it change?"
"Playing them out of theme." < Which reintroduces the issue of balancing.
Thematically, it makes no sense. Release schedule wise, it makes it punishingly difficult to balance. Player wise, it means we have to buy even more stuff. I can't see a single reason why it would be positive for anyone involved except for people who already have both and have a strange Helga X Kell Bailoch ship going.
Actually the game being balanced around Themes isn't my assertion, but ones other have given me. Since Organized Play almost requires Themes, that makes some sense.
Thematically, it makes sense as more of the Minions learn more about the rest of the world of Immoren and get mixed in with some of the Mercenary groups as time progresses, leading to the Warlocks and Warcasters recruiting them to accomplish some of their agreements.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Jan 23, 2019 20:43:12 GMT
as a not at all silly fellow i find this thred to be very silly indeed
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