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Post by sand20go on Nov 21, 2018 17:58:08 GMT
So anyone following the CIDs know that PP seems stuck (putting more evidence that among the senior designers there is just not someone who has thunk deeply about Khador). The flip flop in 2.5 feels like nothing more than spitballing at its core.
So I got to thinking (always dangerous)
1) We are NOT getting the ability to put most spells on doomies. I think rightly so they worry about fury, last stand, battlelust, Hand of Fate and how that would buff them too high.
2) The tough - rise mechanic just isn't compelling. At 13/13 the doomies are simply too easy to hit on the first shot. Yes, tough requires more expenditure of resources but given CMD7 there is a good chance you can double dip with sprays, aoes, and other things that can increase your efficiency.
3) Pathfinder also seems problematic with Saxon available to us and then infantry-centric casters like Irusk2. As others have pointed out - 3 points for the escort vs. 4 points for saxon seems like a no brainer.
3.5) Apparation also reduces the utility/need for pathfinder here. Yes, it is a cruch but you can make this work well with proper use of the theme benefit.
So pathway to solutions.
4) Outside of the Strike tanker Khador does NOT have ready access to grevious wounds. Having seen stupid GC in action I can tell you it is really nice to have
5) The "fluff" here is that we have dark magic being investigated by the Ternions and then criminals chained to swords. We have a ready made mechanics in souls and/or "rage tokens" which both could work. Below I will elaborate on both.
6) We want this to work well but not too well with Zerkova2 and Butcher 2. There will be other casters that run WoW but we want some fun here with the 2 iconic casters for that part of the faction.
7) We do NOT need an entire rework of the models. This is a "mini-CID" - trying to address a theme which just doesn't get enough play.
The Solution
A) We start by giving Fenris a soul collecting and spending mechanic (this also could be rage tokens if PP prefers but it might be nice to keep rule bloat to a minimum). Capped like all souls at three. So now Fenris can charge in and start doing work. It provides the benefit of getting souls from impact attacks and/or zerker near the juicy target. His victim stats do not break the game. With souls it synergizes with Butcher 2, making Fenris on feat turn a truly scary guy - but predictable in range as to provide counter play. It works with Zerkova2 who can hold her feat and use the sprays to try to fuel up Fenris to provide some "hit" to complement the sprays. Consistent with the fluff (see Ruin)
B) We then give the escorts grevious wounds. Here he becomes compelling because now tough does not shut down my zerker chain. It also provides an interesting idea that the doomies go charging in, apply grevious, die, but the hard target is not healable.
C) The most controversial change is to admit that IceCage on the Ternions is sadly MK2. It "worked" when you took em in a jack heavy force or when stationary was unshakable. It works as an AEO (see CG) because it provides for a way of removing def buffs even when in ridiculous territory based on the 1/2 distance AOE rule (get within 4, auto hitting the target). But requiring a direct hit on a Magic 7 entity just is not usually going to be a desired choice. Oh you will cast it - when POW 12 sprays or clouds don't make a difference but not usually.
C2) But what WILL be compelling is "Ogroth curse" Like ice cage lets make it Rng 6 or 8 (not sure it matters). And what does Ogroth Curse"? For one turn target if disabled it is removed from play. RFP is something that khador does NOT have great access to outside of S2 and B3. S2 is a mess without Freezing Grip. B3 and silence works but rarely will he get that much work out the RFP aspect baring, for example, buffing Shocks in an AK. But here we have our ready made anti-recussion army - a bunch of doomies and greylords walking the field.
Such a build opens up some really interesting match ups. Probably still a bad play into a recussion caster like Haley3 but very viable into Skorne's new battle engines. I think also a 50/50 or 40/60 game into Syvestro. Have to think about Gore4 but I think so - especially with, for example, a cloud caster or vlad2.
This works. It fits together. It is fluff consistent. So hopefully PP lurks here cause I am pretty pleased with the idea.
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Post by jdeckert on Nov 21, 2018 18:13:15 GMT
I like it.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 21, 2018 18:36:12 GMT
Sand20go, why don't you post it over on the CID forum yourself?
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Post by auraco on Nov 21, 2018 19:00:03 GMT
Sand20go, why don't you post it over on the CID forum yourself? Yeah this^
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Post by michael on Nov 21, 2018 19:08:05 GMT
I am not feeling it, for various reasons that phone posting makes prohibitive.
What does Fenris’ token collection do that Berserk does not already do?
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Post by sand20go on Nov 21, 2018 19:17:12 GMT
I am not feeling it, for various reasons that phone posting makes prohibitive. What does Fenris’ token collection do that Berserk does not already do? Same Dynamic as when running B2 and/or fueling him up with kills on impact attacks prior to hitting the juicy stuff (the B2 dyanmic - find a juicy heavy near infantry grunts. You hit the infantry grunt and trigger zerk - with final attack hitting heavy. You now then take your second initial at heavy. You then buy with souls. It is very viable to get 5 attacks (or more if you boost damage and think strategically about your zerk chain).
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Post by auraco on Nov 21, 2018 19:31:58 GMT
Fenris won't gain souls (as confirmed by Soles) but he seems open to give more spell to the Escort and give him the ability Combat Caster that allows for casting before movement, if the Escort could get a couple of interesting spells he would feel way less like a tax only there to run on charing turn and more like a real CA.
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Post by sand20go on Nov 21, 2018 19:37:55 GMT
Fenris won't gain souls (as confirmed by Soles) but he seems open to give more spell to the Escort and give him the ability Combat Caster that allows for casting before movement, if the Escort could get a couple of interesting spells he would feel way less like a tax only there to run on charing turn and more like a real CA. I was going to push back hard on Soles but decided against it. Ruin gets souls. Straight up similar. And with Ravenger on B2 we have that already with Ruin. The only difference is cav rules and impact attacks. Combat caster sorta stupid as well. It creates challeges with the charging rule and what really is going to be within 8 inches of the CA and a whole bunch of doomies. There are not a lot of other ways to go here with Fenris. Leadership Elite Cadres possible but not sure Mat 8 vs. 7 is really the cats paw. You need to encourage him to get into the mix and to help the doomies. Giving him a soul mechanic does that. Otherwise he is an ultra expensive flag snipper. Was and still is.
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Post by anderfreak on Nov 21, 2018 19:47:20 GMT
Give the Ternion "Orgoth Curse" instead of Ice Cage and they have a unique place in the army. That's a fine pitch to present on the CID forum, but don't be too surprised if it's lost in the sea of other theory posts. But hey, they've been known to take more demanding suggestions to heart once in a while.
Drop Fenris' points and I like him with blood quenched, he now has a reason to be up front where he should be and has a reasonable chance of surviving the front line, or at least diverting a more significant amount of fire from your other units after he slaughters a squad with the ARM buff and effectively becomes a one man synergy chain with the STR buff. If the opponent keeps his caster too close to some infantry it could be in for a world of hurt. Rise is incidental but can be a good value squeezer every once in a while. That's fine, not everything needs to be eminently useful all the time. Leadership relentless charge was counter to the fluff on Fenris as far as what Fenris' activation looked like in an average game.
Doomies are fine as is, they don't really need a simple way to ignore tough. I'm fine with the opponent not being totally Firetrucked if I get a single doomie into his tough infantry line.
Silence is of minor value and relentless charge is valuable, together they make a model that will see play. If they get an extra spell? Gravy!
They could have just dropped doomies to 10 points and called it a day and I would be happy, WoW was already seen occasionally pre-CID as a counter-pick pairing and we'll only see it more now. I'm glad we've got what we've got here even if they did shuffle some incidental stuff around. I appreciate the effort and I chalk this one up as a success.
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Post by auraco on Nov 21, 2018 20:35:49 GMT
Fenris won't gain souls (as confirmed by Soles) but he seems open to give more spell to the Escort and give him the ability Combat Caster that allows for casting before movement, if the Escort could get a couple of interesting spells he would feel way less like a tax only there to run on charing turn and more like a real CA. I was going to push back hard on Soles but decided against it. Ruin gets souls. Straight up similar. And with Ravenger on B2 we have that already with Ruin. The only difference is cav rules and impact attacks. Combat caster sorta stupid as well. It creates challeges with the charging rule and what really is going to be within 8 inches of the CA and a whole bunch of doomies. There are not a lot of other ways to go here with Fenris. Leadership Elite Cadres possible but not sure Mat 8 vs. 7 is really the cats paw. You need to encourage him to get into the mix and to help the doomies. Giving him a soul mechanic does that. Otherwise he is an ultra expensive flag snipper. Was and still is. Combat caster assumes the Escort gets other spells than the ice shotgun, which would be interesting, depending on what other spells are given, but there are a lot of options, just think of it as prayers like on the Satixis raider CA. I really like that idea on paper, and if PP goes with it, it would be interesting to see what kind of spell the give to the escort.
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Post by jdeckert on Nov 21, 2018 20:37:32 GMT
Combat caster sorta stupid as well. It creates challeges with the charging rule and what really is going to be within 8 inches of the CA and a whole bunch of doomies. He could spray and clear some stuff that's blocking doom reavers, opening up their charge lane. If he got ice cage, he can hit 10 inches with that and doom reavers threaten 11", so that's not terrible. Plus it opens up options for other spells - granting concealment or grievous or any number of other cold/dark magic things that would be nice. It's way more out of the box, and I'm hopeful that PP will explore that rather than just shifting abilities or reducing point costs. Not that those strategies are always bad - I just think he needs something different.
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Post by auraco on Nov 21, 2018 20:48:39 GMT
Combat caster sorta stupid as well. It creates challeges with the charging rule and what really is going to be within 8 inches of the CA and a whole bunch of doomies. He could spray and clear some stuff that's blocking doom reavers, opening up their charge lane. If he got ice cage, he can hit 10 inches with that and doom reavers threaten 11", so that's not terrible. Plus it opens up options for other spells - granting concealment or grievous or any number of other cold/dark magic things that would be nice. It's way more out of the box, and I'm hopeful that PP will explore that rather than just shifting abilities or reducing point costs. Not that those strategies are always bad - I just think he needs something different. I'd wish for Whipping Winds but be fine with Dirge of Mist. I also like the idea of a spell giving the unit grevious wounds. It would finally give us an interesting option to get a wider access to that ability.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Nov 22, 2018 0:52:19 GMT
Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind if THE only direct spell buffs to Doomies came from within the unit via an Escort with Combat Caster.
And maybe Fenris could go down in points and be purely a Combat solo.
Just spit balling here, but Ghost Walk, Dirge of Mist, or even a self buff that granted Dark Shroud to the Escort would be kinda cool (give him a reason to get stuck in against harder targets).
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Post by michael on Nov 22, 2018 4:09:26 GMT
Combat caster sorta stupid as well. It creates challeges with the charging rule and what really is going to be within 8 inches of the CA and a whole bunch of doomies. He could spray and clear some stuff that's blocking doom reavers, opening up their charge lane. If he got ice cage, he can hit 10 inches with that and doom reavers threaten 11", so that's not terrible. ... That is exactly where I was going with Combat Caster + Ice Cage.
There's some serious flexibility and tactical application there, especially when you start thinking about Ternions with Battle Wizard granted by a nearby Koldun Lord... Or, heck, even just Ternions going for the big "3 Ice Cages to stationary" routine. I can't tell you the number of times that guy #1 has missed his ~7 to hit, and my plan to stationary something failed.
But, an essentially free contribution from a nearby Escort...? (I mean, what's your as-is Escort doing now, anyway? Nothing!) Worst case, he misses, and your Ternion still gets 3 more tries. Best case...well!
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Post by michael on Nov 22, 2018 4:18:06 GMT
And on that topic... You know what else drives me crazy? People who dismiss ideas like that with comments like “They’re already MAT 7” or “You only need 7’s to hit”. It’s like... You don’t understand math, do you? Heck, “you only need 5’s to hit” is still not close to guaranteed odds if you only have one or two chances. Me, I don’t start feeling comfortable until it’s “Anything but snake eyes....”, and even then...
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