Post by jdeckert on Oct 22, 2018 16:39:49 GMT
Okay, so I know there were a couple Butcher2 threads, but thought I'd do a quick write-up.
Why Butcher2? I got this question a lot over the weekend. First, I haven't played much in the last year, so I went with something familiar. Second, I think he deals with infantry spam better than Butcher3. At the start of Mk3 I played him a lot and did well with him, but basically nobody was running any infantry at all, so Butcher3 was basically strictly better. Now, with more infantry around I figured Butcher2 could do some work.
Game 1 I played into Thagrosh1. It went fine. Early on I sent Ruin with fury, full focus, and ravager into Azrael. Left him with 5 boxes. That was sad. I could have feated to guarantee the kill, but I thought I was in overkill mode already. Should have done the math - Ruin probably should have gotten the kill but being safer there would have been a big deal. Turn after that Butcher2 could have feat-walked to Thagrosh, buuut I roll a 1 on my focus roll. With a couple of transfers, I don't think the odds are good enough to gamble the game. I kill a bunch of his other stuff instead and we grind each other down a bit. I was in an okay position, and win on clock.
Game 2 I played into Siege1 with all the gun mages. My rustiness (and fatigue) was pretty decisive in this game. Top of 2 a unit of blazers, the gun mage solo with rune mark (that was new to me), arcane riflemen, and a couple other things killed a unit of shocktroopers, the kovnik, and put 5 boxes of damage on the tanker. Without using his feat. His damage rolls were pretty crazy, but I should have put more on that flank. I ended up trying to pressure from both sides of the forest in the middle of the board, with Butcher doing damage on that weak left flank and Ruin coming in from the right. But I goofed up and got Butcher too far from Ruin, losing boundless charge, so he didn't have anything to do with his focus. Butcher gets shot to death. It was close-ish, and would have been very close if I had played my focus better/had a little better dice (Butcher needs to spend a focus on an attack). Would probably have been a lot better if I had just pivoted.
So... thoughts on Butcher2. He's not hopeless, and I think he's better than people give him credit for, but he does need a little help. Here's what I would do:
1. Give him overtake. Seriously. Homicidal maniac is just tedious. I can get the overtake effect (although sometimes it costs me 1/2 an inch), but I have to do all this tedious placement and finagling. Overtake would be a small buff and make playing him a LOT more fun. I'll really be scratching my head if they don't do this.
2. Make him d3+3 focus. I actually don't hate the random focus as much as a lot of people do. I think you can play around it. But playing with 2 or 3 focus for a turn can be really annoying. While there are only a couple of games I've lost due to a bad focus roll, it certainly can be decisive. They can keep the random gimmick, but the rest of his kit isn't worth him being essentially a focus 4.5 caster anyway. That's journeyman level stuff. Make him average a 5, and let us at least be able to know we can throw out boundless or fury while loading up a 'jack. Or camp a bit. Because with the feat change, he went from being a support caster in Mk2 to someone who has to do work himself to justify taking him over another option. And, as others have mentioned, he needs more reliable survivability to do that.
That's my top 2, if he doesn't get those he'd have to get something really amazing and unpredictable or I'd probably end up shelving him. For other nice-to-haves:
3. An elite cadre for doom reavers. My lack of enthusiasm for Mk3 has a lot to do with mad dogs of war going away - it was the most fun I had in Mk2 and I spent a lot of time getting six units painted up. Now I have a sixth unit sitting that I (actually) can't play and a fifth unit that I (practically) can't play. The other four units aren't in a great place, either CID could patch that up, but other casters will still run them better because Butcher2 really doesn't do anything for them right now. I'd give him Elite Cadre: Steady. It's a piece of defensive tech (which they need and other casters who run them well bring), but one that fits the Butcher's theme - you will keep fighting.
As an alternative way of making him good with reavers (and more survivable), maybe Call to Sacrifice [Doom Reaver] combined with cheaper reavers. Let him play more forward like he needs to.
4. More off the wall here - give him (and/or his battlegroup) an ability to charge friendly models. It fits the fluff and would give him a unique and interesting ability. The no-charging-friendlies rule in Mk3 makes sense. It also makes polarity-field and LOS blocking abilities more powerful. This would give him a niche as a counterplay to some of that. It could get rolled into homicidal maniac if they want to keep that as a unique ability for him (just Homicidal Maniac - This model can charge friendly models. When this model destroys an enemy model with a melee attack, after the attack is resolved it can advance 1".). It could get added to ravager to make that spell more useful.
Why Butcher2? I got this question a lot over the weekend. First, I haven't played much in the last year, so I went with something familiar. Second, I think he deals with infantry spam better than Butcher3. At the start of Mk3 I played him a lot and did well with him, but basically nobody was running any infantry at all, so Butcher3 was basically strictly better. Now, with more infantry around I figured Butcher2 could do some work.
Game 1 I played into Thagrosh1. It went fine. Early on I sent Ruin with fury, full focus, and ravager into Azrael. Left him with 5 boxes. That was sad. I could have feated to guarantee the kill, but I thought I was in overkill mode already. Should have done the math - Ruin probably should have gotten the kill but being safer there would have been a big deal. Turn after that Butcher2 could have feat-walked to Thagrosh, buuut I roll a 1 on my focus roll. With a couple of transfers, I don't think the odds are good enough to gamble the game. I kill a bunch of his other stuff instead and we grind each other down a bit. I was in an okay position, and win on clock.
Game 2 I played into Siege1 with all the gun mages. My rustiness (and fatigue) was pretty decisive in this game. Top of 2 a unit of blazers, the gun mage solo with rune mark (that was new to me), arcane riflemen, and a couple other things killed a unit of shocktroopers, the kovnik, and put 5 boxes of damage on the tanker. Without using his feat. His damage rolls were pretty crazy, but I should have put more on that flank. I ended up trying to pressure from both sides of the forest in the middle of the board, with Butcher doing damage on that weak left flank and Ruin coming in from the right. But I goofed up and got Butcher too far from Ruin, losing boundless charge, so he didn't have anything to do with his focus. Butcher gets shot to death. It was close-ish, and would have been very close if I had played my focus better/had a little better dice (Butcher needs to spend a focus on an attack). Would probably have been a lot better if I had just pivoted.
So... thoughts on Butcher2. He's not hopeless, and I think he's better than people give him credit for, but he does need a little help. Here's what I would do:
1. Give him overtake. Seriously. Homicidal maniac is just tedious. I can get the overtake effect (although sometimes it costs me 1/2 an inch), but I have to do all this tedious placement and finagling. Overtake would be a small buff and make playing him a LOT more fun. I'll really be scratching my head if they don't do this.
2. Make him d3+3 focus. I actually don't hate the random focus as much as a lot of people do. I think you can play around it. But playing with 2 or 3 focus for a turn can be really annoying. While there are only a couple of games I've lost due to a bad focus roll, it certainly can be decisive. They can keep the random gimmick, but the rest of his kit isn't worth him being essentially a focus 4.5 caster anyway. That's journeyman level stuff. Make him average a 5, and let us at least be able to know we can throw out boundless or fury while loading up a 'jack. Or camp a bit. Because with the feat change, he went from being a support caster in Mk2 to someone who has to do work himself to justify taking him over another option. And, as others have mentioned, he needs more reliable survivability to do that.
That's my top 2, if he doesn't get those he'd have to get something really amazing and unpredictable or I'd probably end up shelving him. For other nice-to-haves:
3. An elite cadre for doom reavers. My lack of enthusiasm for Mk3 has a lot to do with mad dogs of war going away - it was the most fun I had in Mk2 and I spent a lot of time getting six units painted up. Now I have a sixth unit sitting that I (actually) can't play and a fifth unit that I (practically) can't play. The other four units aren't in a great place, either CID could patch that up, but other casters will still run them better because Butcher2 really doesn't do anything for them right now. I'd give him Elite Cadre: Steady. It's a piece of defensive tech (which they need and other casters who run them well bring), but one that fits the Butcher's theme - you will keep fighting.
As an alternative way of making him good with reavers (and more survivable), maybe Call to Sacrifice [Doom Reaver] combined with cheaper reavers. Let him play more forward like he needs to.
4. More off the wall here - give him (and/or his battlegroup) an ability to charge friendly models. It fits the fluff and would give him a unique and interesting ability. The no-charging-friendlies rule in Mk3 makes sense. It also makes polarity-field and LOS blocking abilities more powerful. This would give him a niche as a counterplay to some of that. It could get rolled into homicidal maniac if they want to keep that as a unique ability for him (just Homicidal Maniac - This model can charge friendly models. When this model destroys an enemy model with a melee attack, after the attack is resolved it can advance 1".). It could get added to ravager to make that spell more useful.