granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353 
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Post by granor on Sept 17, 2018 17:10:02 GMT
Caster Games Wins % win rate Jalaam
| skorne
| 2
| 0
| 0%
| | Makeda 1 | skorne
| 6 | 2 | 33.33%
| Makeda 2
| skorne
| 5 | 1 | 20% | | Mordikaar 1 | skorne
| 7 | 4 | 57.14% | Morghoul 2
| skorne
| 19 | 9 | 47.37% | | Rasheth | skorne
| 43 | 17 | 39.53% | | Xerxis 1 | skorne
| 5 | 1 | 20% | Xerxis 2
| skorne
| 18 | 9 | 50% | Zaadesh 2
| skorne
| 14 | 5 | 35.71% | | Zaal 1 | skorne
| 11
| 4
| 36.36%
| Zaal 2
| skorne
| 2 | 1 | 50% |
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Post by elladan52 on Sept 17, 2018 17:24:59 GMT
Mordikaar OP
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 17, 2018 19:26:23 GMT
Much as I love statistical data, the format of WTC makes extrapolating lessons for outside play difficult, if not impossible. The way teams are built impacts list-building, which in turn affects which player gets dropped into an opponent, and from there list selection.
Still, it's interesting to see. One thimg I'm taking from this is that obviouspy at the highest levels, opponents are prepared for Rasheth in Winds.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 17, 2018 21:22:19 GMT
I look at this and see that at the highest play lvls, Skorne is bad. Because we just don't have a highly tuned theme that's gone through CiD to play from. But since I don't populate the highest lvls of play, that's perfectly ok with me.  |
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 17, 2018 23:55:23 GMT
I look at this and see that at the highest play lvls, Skorne is bad. Because we just don't have a highly tuned theme that's gone through CiD to play from. But since I don't populate the highest lvls of play, that's perfectly ok with me. In that case, what are your hopes for the Exalted CID? Because we are accustomed to disappointment, what about expectations? |
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 18, 2018 0:07:26 GMT
I look at this and see that at the highest play lvls, Skorne is bad. Because we just don't have a highly tuned theme that's gone through CiD to play from. But since I don't populate the highest lvls of play, that's perfectly ok with me. In that case, what are your hopes for the Exalted CID? Because we are accustomed to disappointment, what about expectations? I'm fully prepared for Exalted mediocrity as far as themes go. Partly, I'm not big on the immortals, so whatevs. Partly, it seems the more models a CiD has to work with, the stronger things tend to come out. There just isn't much there, unless we get a whole slew of warbeasts or casters or the like pulled in. Or unless there's a unit or two they haven't revealed yet. |
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 18, 2018 0:14:02 GMT
Still, it's interesting to see. One thimg I'm taking from this is that obviouspy at the highest levels, opponents are prepared for Rasheth in Winds. That would be my takeaway. Oftentimes it is not the individual power of a specific list, it is the commonality of a list. The more certain concepts get played, the easier it is to find solutions to said lists.
That's probably why Mordikaar did so well, no one is expecting that toolkit when facing off against Skorne. Sure, its an awkward toolkit, but that's why the greatest swordsman doesn't fear the 2nd greatest swordsman, but someone who hasn't developed effective, but predictable, practices.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 18, 2018 0:17:37 GMT
Still, it's interesting to see. One thimg I'm taking from this is that obviouspy at the highest levels, opponents are prepared for Rasheth in Winds. That would be my takeaway. Oftentimes it is not the individual power of a specific list, it is the commonality of a list. The more certain concepts get played, the easier it is to find solutions to said lists.
That's probably why Mordikaar did so well, no one is expecting that toolkit when facing off against Skorne. Sure, its an awkward toolkit, but that's why the greatest swordsman doesn't fear the 2nd greatest swordsman, but someone who hasn't developed effective, but predictable, practices.
So the greatest swordsman fears... the man with the bloody shovel? Twin chain flails? A gunsword? |
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 18, 2018 0:22:42 GMT
That would be my takeaway. Oftentimes it is not the individual power of a specific list, it is the commonality of a list. The more certain concepts get played, the easier it is to find solutions to said lists.
That's probably why Mordikaar did so well, no one is expecting that toolkit when facing off against Skorne. Sure, its an awkward toolkit, but that's why the greatest swordsman doesn't fear the 2nd greatest swordsman, but someone who hasn't developed effective, but predictable, practices.
So the greatest swordsman fears... the man with the bloody shovel? Twin chain flails? A gunsword? The weapon isn't entirely in question, but the person wielding the weapon. If we took a viking from the invasions of the British Isles and dropped them in to fuedal Japan, neither would have any ideas about their fighting style or toolkit. Katanas are elegant weapons, but not suited for dealing with chainmail. Whereas the heavy viking may not know how to deal with the speed of a samurai. |
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 18, 2018 1:18:08 GMT
So the greatest swordsman fears... the man with the bloody shovel? Twin chain flails? A gunsword? The weapon isn't entirely in question, but the person wielding the weapon. If we took a viking from the invasions of the British Isles and dropped them in to fuedal Japan, neither would have any ideas about their fighting style or toolkit. Katanas are elegant weapons, but not suited for dealing with chainmail. Whereas the heavy viking may not know how to deal with the speed of a samurai. You missed the humor of a master swordsman nervously eyeing up the other soldier with a bloody shovel facing him. |
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Post by sludgeogre on Sept 25, 2018 17:25:14 GMT
Rasheth remains an amazing caster with a fantastic tool kit, but I feel like most top players and especially all top teams have easy answers for battle engines since you see so many of them. Shadowbind is pretty common in my experience especially among Cryx and Legion pairs, blind is all over now especially with Crucible Guard, and plenty of armor cracking lists can kill turtles in a single turn.
I watched as many of the Skorne games from WTC as I could and the guys that won with Rasheth barely pulled it off and went to turn 7 a couple times. There's just so many things that handle the turtles from a positioning standpoint and even more that can kill them pretty fast.
I think Immortals is going to be a lot more optimized once they get the new releases, but MoW really lacks some ability right now and I think the Supreme Guardian will help with staying power and keeping our warlocks from getting assassinated super fast (Xerxis1, I'm looking at you, bud).
As far as positives I really think people need to take Morghoul2 for a spin in DOA. It has some serious potential in the current meta and I've been having an absolute blast with him, 3 units of valks, a unit of bloodrunners and brigands, and a Warstler, Horror, and Archidon. It just does so many things. You can murder infantry really quick and crack armor, plus the assassination vectors are all over the place. Incorporeal swamp horror pulling casters over from across the table is a thing and I LOVE doing it.
Imperial Warhost is still in a great spot and doesn't need much help except Tibbers needs to lose some points and maybe the Cannoneer too, other than that I have no issues. Skorne is in a good spot, but people need to stop crutching on Rasheth so much.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 25, 2018 17:31:51 GMT
And crutching on Rasheth actually makes it easier to be countered. One of the WTC conversations I read was that Gaspy3 w/ 9 Slayers was taken to force people in to a position to do poorly against their other list. This was marked by Gaspy3 being rarely played in the event, even though he was always the Cryx player's first or second list. They have a counter to their counter. What do we really have to counter an anti-Rasheth list?
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Post by sludgeogre on Sept 27, 2018 15:46:09 GMT
And crutching on Rasheth actually makes it easier to be countered. One of the WTC conversations I read was that Gaspy3 w/ 9 Slayers was taken to force people in to a position to do poorly against their other list. This was marked by Gaspy3 being rarely played in the event, even though he was always the Cryx player's first or second list. They have a counter to their counter. What do we really have to counter an anti-Rasheth list? Absolutely. It's a major thing. Those pairs ask a very hard question for a Rasheth player and it's intended to do so. Those anti-Rasheth lists also do really well into CG and Trolls and all sorts of other lists. My best answer so far has been Morghoul2 in DoA, but I think there are other answers out there that we just need to start exploring. I'm pretty excited to try out Immortals, but I've literally only played those units once. |
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