unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Sept 10, 2018 16:00:48 GMT
I mostly agree with Gordo, with the exception of Ravens.
Ravens is a hyper-specialised theme, allowing only light units that prey on light infantry and serpentine beasts. In order to crack armour, the theme needs to bring a number of serpentine heavies (already not efficient for the task...) which is at direct odds with the theme's free points coming from light infantry.
In most factions Ravens would be hands-down the most pants-on-head stupid theme in the faction, but luckily we have CotD which is even more poorly designed as a base-line, with only Secret Masters and Wolves of Winter keeping them company in the dunce corner of themeland.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 10, 2018 16:18:22 GMT
I think you can make good-ish lists with all these themes, but they are kinda limited, not intuitive, and sometimes just feel "inferior" when I compare them to themes from other factions. quoted for truthiness (personally)
I'm in literal turmoil right now as I'm not an expert/pro but I'm by far a bad player and the last 6 games against new themes/CID models has literally curb stomped me off the board by turn 3. Absolute crushing, no contest, defeats that no matter what the dice rolls were, I was doomed. I'm speaking mostly about Armored Core. But a Dark Host game under coven also just made for an non-interactive game where I had to sit and die without accomplishing anything. (fact that my opponent was cheating aside)
Primal terrors is the currently fling because no one has nailed down a counter for it. It's also soo far removed from the general legion playstyle that prior knowledge of legion play habits don't apply. It's why I hate the theme so much and have yet to find success with it.
Legion's identity, in my opinion, is still the same; Damage application. We might not do much damage. But we have a ton of ways of getting that damage out there. So when we come up against things hellmouths can't drag. Things that get stronger/faster if we shoot them. Or tech that just says we can't shoot or charge. We crumble like paper. Zerkova is wrecking my world at the moment. It just happens to be what is in my face and as soon as I figure out the puzzle I can move on and stop being stressed and pitying my choice to keep maining Legion. The problem is nothing in Legion clearly answers the problem. Lots of other factions do seem to have clear answers to things. Krueger 2 would trivially screw up AC even under Zerkova. Baldur 1 would ruin the day of any AC list not under Zerkova (which she doesn't seem to have national level popularity). So we have to toil away hours to try and find obscure answers with few tools and the more we tech for one thing the more we loose on so many other levels.
We have no control caster. We have little to nothing that's not "friendly faction". So we have to rely on exactly what tools are in the faction right now and that's hard when only one theme containing 4 units, 1 solo, and 1 warlock attachment are on the same power level as the rest of the field.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 10, 2018 16:20:55 GMT
I mostly agree with Gordo, with the exception of Ravens. Ravens is a hyper-specialised theme, allowing only light units that prey on light infantry and serpentine beasts. In order to crack armour, the theme needs to bring a number of serpentine heavies (already not efficient for the task...) which is at direct odds with the theme's free points coming from light infantry. In most factions Ravens would be hands-down the most pants-on-head stupid theme in the faction, but luckily we have CotD which is even more poorly designed as a base-line, with only Secret Masters and Wolves of Winter keeping them company in the dunce corner of themeland. Ravens is fully functional but the current meta does not have anything it wants to pick a fight with. I like the design of Ravens far more than any other theme we have. It actually makes sense. It's just not what we need right now to compete.
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Tharn CID
Sept 10, 2018 16:58:16 GMT
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Sept 10, 2018 16:58:16 GMT
Not quite. Power creep is when the curve keeps shifting with every release imo. In this case the models are being moved to that static power level, but not beyond it. It’s a pretty important distinction- it means that you don’t have to keep buying the latest hotness in order to stay competitive, since your old models are being brought in line with the best in the game I think you have a weird definition of powercreep. When over time everything is brought up to the powerlevel of what was ones considered OP, what else would you call it? The new minifactions even come out ahead of the current powercurve to accomodate for the rise in power to come, to "make them futureproof", PP was very clear on that (apparently, the quote is hearsay on my part). I appreciate the distinction; you might argue that they set a certain powerlevel to balance for, and as such it is not powercreep, but who are we kiddin if we except that? In the end, many models that aren't in a CID are left to eat dust untill their own Cid cycle, which might be months if not years to come.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Sept 10, 2018 17:39:02 GMT
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Post by gordo on Sept 10, 2018 17:39:02 GMT
I mostly agree with Gordo, with the exception of Ravens. Ravens is a hyper-specialised theme, allowing only light units that prey on light infantry and serpentine beasts. In order to crack armour, the theme needs to bring a number of serpentine heavies (already not efficient for the task...) which is at direct odds with the theme's free points coming from light infantry. In most factions Ravens would be hands-down the most pants-on-head stupid theme in the faction, but luckily we have CotD which is even more poorly designed as a base-line, with only Secret Masters and Wolves of Winter keeping them company in the dunce corner of themeland. Heh, I actually think Wolves of Winter is a great theme, very well designed. So yeah, we may have to agree to disagree. But yeah, hyper-specialized isn't too me what makes a theme bad, it just needs to be the lesser used part of a good pairing. Which is why all the WTC lists right now are Primal Terrors as their primary and a secondary of Ravens (usually). But on the subject of cracking armor, best I can figure is that only certain casters are really meant to play it. Low fury Casters like Kallus2 and Lylyth1. Also, I'm convinced that Ravens is the perfect place for the Archangel.
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Post by custardboy on Sept 10, 2018 23:40:58 GMT
I mostly agree with Gordo, with the exception of Ravens. Ravens is a hyper-specialised theme, allowing only light units that prey on light infantry and serpentine beasts. In order to crack armour, the theme needs to bring a number of serpentine heavies (already not efficient for the task...) which is at direct odds with the theme's free points coming from light infantry. In most factions Ravens would be hands-down the most pants-on-head stupid theme in the faction, but luckily we have CotD which is even more poorly designed as a base-line, with only Secret Masters and Wolves of Winter keeping them company in the dunce corner of themeland. Heh, I actually think Wolves of Winter is a great theme, very well designed. So yeah, we may have to agree to disagree. But yeah, hyper-specialized isn't too me what makes a theme bad, it just needs to be the lesser used part of a good pairing. Which is why all the WTC lists right now are Primal Terrors as their primary and a secondary of Ravens (usually). But on the subject of cracking armor, best I can figure is that only certain casters are really meant to play it. Low fury Casters like Kallus2 and Lylyth1. Also, I'm convinced that Ravens is the perfect place for the Archangel. Yeah wolves of winter is a legitimately good theme, Khador players just need to pull their finger out and play it. I've constantly told the local player to use wolves for his bad matchups, wrote a few lists for him, now he's finally trying it and smashing everyone. Ravens is one of my favourite themes in the game for design but we don't have a caster that can fix its weaknesses and play its strengths at the same time- you do one or the other. It is well designed theme that doesn't really work, unlike Children which is poorly designed but we can make work.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 548
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Sept 11, 2018 3:47:29 GMT
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Post by gordo on Sept 11, 2018 3:47:29 GMT
Heh, I actually think Wolves of Winter is a great theme, very well designed. So yeah, we may have to agree to disagree. But yeah, hyper-specialized isn't too me what makes a theme bad, it just needs to be the lesser used part of a good pairing. Which is why all the WTC lists right now are Primal Terrors as their primary and a secondary of Ravens (usually). But on the subject of cracking armor, best I can figure is that only certain casters are really meant to play it. Low fury Casters like Kallus2 and Lylyth1. Also, I'm convinced that Ravens is the perfect place for the Archangel. Yeah wolves of winter is a legitimately good theme, Khador players just need to pull their finger out and play it. I've constantly told the local player to use wolves for his bad matchups, wrote a few lists for him, now he's finally trying it and smashing everyone. Ravens is one of my favourite themes in the game for design but we don't have a caster that can fix its weaknesses and play its strengths at the same time- you do one or the other. It is well designed theme that doesn't really work, unlike Children which is poorly designed but we can make work. ... I hate how true this is.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Sept 11, 2018 9:03:55 GMT
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Post by unded on Sept 11, 2018 9:03:55 GMT
Yeah, I just call it a bad theme (Ravens)
Any theme with limited infantry AND a limited battlegroup had better be doing something amazing, and Ravens does nothing if the sort.
Add to that the skornergy of free points for infantry when you need lots of beasts, and it’s just a cluster-firetruck of a theme.
As for wolves... fix up doom reavers and I’ll love wolves. I don’t even play Khador, but I want to see doom reavers be scary again. Right now I don’t fear them at all.
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Tharn CID
Sept 11, 2018 12:09:48 GMT
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Post by voidbender on Sept 11, 2018 12:09:48 GMT
Yeah, I just call it a bad theme (Ravens) Any theme with limited infantry AND a limited battlegroup had better be doing something amazing, and Ravens does nothing if the sort. Add to that the skornergy of free points for infantry when you need lots of beasts, and it’s just a cluster-firetruck of a theme. As for wolves... fix up doom reavers and I’ll love wolves. I don’t even play Khador, but I want to see doom reavers be scary again. Right now I don’t fear them at all. Three units under vlad2 across the 24" line on the top of 1 have caused some difficulty for me.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 11, 2018 12:24:39 GMT
Yeah wolves of winter is a legitimately good theme, Khador players just need to pull their finger out and play it. I've constantly told the local player to use wolves for his bad matchups, wrote a few lists for him, now he's finally trying it and smashing everyone. Ravens is one of my favourite themes in the game for design but we don't have a caster that can fix its weaknesses and play its strengths at the same time- you do one or the other. It is well designed theme that doesn't really work, unlike Children which is poorly designed but we can make work. ... I hate how true this is. Just played last night with CotD and won pretty easily. I love that theme. I can play it well. But yes, it is still a stupidly designed theme.
Where as I'm still like 1W 6L with Primal terrors >.>
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 11, 2018 12:28:44 GMT
Three units under vlad2 across the 24" line on the top of 1 have caused some difficulty for me. 13/14 stat line with no stealth or concealment is pretty victim~y though.
But then again if you aren't running striders (cuz you know, only allowed in ravens) or Hex hunters I can see how that's going to lead to a bad day.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Sept 11, 2018 13:54:46 GMT
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Post by gordo on Sept 11, 2018 13:54:46 GMT
Yeah, I just call it a bad theme (Ravens) Any theme with limited infantry AND a limited battlegroup had better be doing something amazing, and Ravens does nothing if the sort. Add to that the skornergy of free points for infantry when you need lots of beasts, and it’s just a cluster-firetruck of a theme. As for wolves... fix up doom reavers and I’ll love wolves. I don’t even play Khador, but I want to see doom reavers be scary again. Right now I don’t fear them at all. I play against Wolves a lot with my Skorne, they terrify me. 13" threat range when their offensive stats ends just about anything I put in range. All they need is a delivery mechanism, of which Khador has plenty. I've never played against them with my Legion though, so maybe that would lead me to a different opinion.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Sept 11, 2018 16:31:56 GMT
Dunno about Skorne, but I know that I don't fear them with Cryx, Legion, Circle or Grymkin. That's a pretty big stretch of "don't care" for my liking.
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 12, 2018 0:32:50 GMT
Wk3 is up. More buffs to the Storm Raptor as well as some toning down and shifting on others.
Iona the Unseen: Iona saw some minor changes this week. Her feat's secondary funciton now only works on Faction models (sorry minions, the Beast was not your time). Additional, Abaittoir was not performing quite as well as we'd hoped. We realize this is a very corner case spell but wanted to give it a little bump in power when those corner cases did come up.
Time of the Beast feat text changed to:
While in Iona’s control range, friendly Tharn models gain +3 STR and ARM. Additionally, while in Iona’s control range, friendly Faction warrior models can reroll missed attack rolls. Each attack roll can be rerolled only once as a result of Time of the Beast. Time of the Beast lasts for one round.
Abattoir spell COST 2.
Morvahna the Autumnblade: This is a request from the community, and one that I quite like. I think there is a very interesting choice now on Morvahna 1 - Do you use Restoration (Formerly Regrowth) to return a bunch of models or do you try to leverage Mortality? If Harvest is up and running you could try for both! Please submit feedback about the direction of these changes and how you feel they affect Morvahna 1 on a turn by turn basis.
Gain Mortality:
Mortality 3 10 – – RND Yes
Target model/unit suffers –2 DEF and ARM, loses Tough XICONX, and cannot have damage removed from it. Mortality lasts for one round.
Cut Regrowth.
Change Restoration to:
Restoration 2 6 – – UP No
Target friendly Faction unit gains +2 ARM. Models are not affected by Restoration while out of formation. During your Control Phase, the spellcaster can spend fury points to return one destroyed small-or medium-based living Grunt from that unit to play for each fury point spent. A returned Grunt must be placed in the spellcaster’s control range, in formation, and within 3” of another model in its unit. The Grunt is returned with one unmarked damage box and must forfeit its Combat Action the turn it is put into play.
Brennos the Elderhorn: This change allows Brennos to be a little more active and aggressive while still maintaining a support role. We're not looking for Brennos to become a combat oriented beast but we also did not want to punish players for getting him into the mix.
Gain Battle Wizard:
Battle Wizard - Once per turn, when this model destroys one or more enemy models with a melee attack during its activation, immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one Magic Ability special attack or special action.
Shadowhorn Satyr: The Shadowhorn was over-performing. Instead of reducing stats or removing rules that players seemed to enjoy we decided to slightly increase it's point cost. Cost 12.
Storm Rator: We've decided to get a little aggressive in the changes here. Sustained Attack and an increase in Reload to two make the Storm Raptor a little more aggressive in it's ranged output. Energy Pulse combined with Sky Fire brings a very powerful attack that could very well affect both sides of the table. We're very cautious about these changes and really want to see how this does on the table. Please make sure to get some games in with these new rules.
Sky Fire lasts for one round.
Lightning RNG 14.
Cut Lightning Generator from Lightning.
Lightning gains Energy Pulse (★Attack) and Sustained Attack:
Energy Pulse (★Attack) - This attack does not need a target. Each other model within 6˝ of this model that is in its front arc is automatically hit unless this model’s LOS to it is blocked by terrain. Models hit suffer a POW 12 electrical damage roll XICONX. Energy Pulse damage rolls are simultaneous.
Sustained Attack - During this model’s activation, when it makes an attack with this weapon against the last model hit by the weapon this activation, the attack automatically hits.
Replace Reload [1] with Reload [2]:
Reload [2] - This model can be forced to make up to two additional ranged attacks with this weapon during its Combat Action. It can make one additional attack each time it is forced.
Bríghid & Caul: We're fairly happy with this unit's output and turn by turn application but many players found them a little over-costed. We also felt the change to Devourer's Host reduced their effectiveness a little so we wanted to give them a slight bump.
Cost 7.
Bloodweaver Night Witch: This is a nice quality of life change so she can be deployed with the unit she supports.
Gain Advanced Deployment XICONX.
Lord of the Feast: We've decided after the change to Devourer's host to return this classic rule to the Lord of the Feast. This should help it function on a turn by turn basis while also allowing it to utilize Shifter more consistently than it's pre CID version.
Wurmblade gains Blood Reaper:
Blood Reaper - When this model makes an initial attack with this weapon, it makes one melee attack with this weapon against each model in its LOS that is in this weapon’s melee range. Blood Reaper attacks are simultaneous.
Well of Orboros: 10 seems to be slightly aggressive on the point cost scale but there is still a lot of discussion to be had about the point cost of the Well of Orboros. Please continue to test and supply feedback on this model.
Cost 12.
Circle Theme Force: The Devourer’s Host: This is change that was very hotly discussed in week one of this CID. We've decided to give it a try for quite a few reasons, primarily that it takes the spot light off of the Death Wolves and allows many other things to shine without the player feeling like they are handicapping themselves.
Replace the fourth benefit with the following:
· Each model in this army that can gain corpse tokens begins the game with one corpse token.
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Tharn CID
Sept 12, 2018 7:59:28 GMT
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Post by slaughtersun on Sept 12, 2018 7:59:28 GMT
I know its still ongoing but i've given up trying to get some common sense going in the CID forums.
Now the complaint is that the bird dies if it uses the pulse. Or that mortality on morvahana is hard to use when you want to use the recursion spell.
Strangely enough or perhaos not,now that gethoryx is head and shoulders better than typhoon they dont talk about werewolves anymore except asking for amputation on gethoryx axe...
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