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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 31, 2018 8:03:29 GMT
germanicus you can always Parasite a unit them feat on them for pow 8s True... but Parasite on an ARM 11 unit is nominally rather overkill! Still, given their invariable death and recovering 7 Focus, it can always be cycled to a new target, so there's merit in it I suppose. Can also have a Wraith Engine or something with Scything Touch stand near another unit for more death. Bonus points if you spawn a Machine Wraith!
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
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Post by Cyel on Aug 31, 2018 9:12:53 GMT
germanicus you can always Parasite a unit them feat on them for pow 8s Exactly. That's how the deleting happens
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germanicus
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No jokes round ear...
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Post by germanicus on Aug 31, 2018 9:18:30 GMT
Can also have a Wraith Engine or something with Scything Touch stand near another unit for more death. Bonus points if you spawn a Machine Wraith! True, but can't take the Wraith Engine in SotBC (as per OT), and Scything Touch, even on a Raider, with a Hag run-in from Ambush can probably get a bit of coverage.
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Zaku
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Post by Zaku on Aug 31, 2018 10:06:16 GMT
Zaku, I didn't see anyone else mention it, but Force Barrier only grants the +2 DEF against ranged attacks and not against magic attacks. Note that the blast immunity doesn't care about the source. Hah. You are totally right, I don't know why I randomly thought it buffed their DEF against magic as well... It is probably because I face Trenchers more than anything and forget there is ranged attacks that isn't just waves of gunfire haha.
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Post by leotherat on Aug 31, 2018 13:02:13 GMT
Gamingdevil - I have no problem having a Kraken in both lists if that's what it takes to make them good. You are correct in that, at this point, I'd rather not invest in Skarre 3. I'm interested in your broken coast list that uses the Kraken. I was pondering a list like this - conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0Yf_c31ekr2xks1Q1Tkx1Nke1NkeCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Scourge of the Broken Coast [Agathia 1] Bane Witch Agathia [+29] - Kraken [36] - Ripjaw [7] Axiara Wraithblade [0(6)] Satyxis Raider Captain [0(4)] Severa Blacktide [6] Satyxis Blood Witches (min) [8] - Satyxis Blood Hag [0(4)] Satyxis Gunslingers [7] Satyxis Raiders (max) [16] - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch [4] Satyxis Raiders (max) [16] - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch [4] Or were you thinking of a different caster?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 31, 2018 13:11:54 GMT
Or were you thinking of a different caster? Yes, I was actually still thinking of doing a thematic Satyxis army. The Kraken offers quite a lot to Skarre 2 and they synergize well (Black Spot, Death Ward and Future Sight) Perhaps something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0Y0Ic31fkpkrkqkq9uks1Q1Tkxkx1NkeCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Scourge of the Broken Coast [Skarre 2] Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast [+26] - Kraken [36] - Nightwretch [7] - Satyxis Blood Priestess [4] Axiara Wraithblade [0(6)] Misery Cage [2] Misery Cage [2] Ragman [4] Severa Blacktide [0(6)] Satyxis Blood Witches (min) [8] - Satyxis Blood Hag [4] Satyxis Gunslingers [7] Satyxis Gunslingers [7] Satyxis Raiders (max) [16] - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch [4] It's not the greatest thing ever, but it should be functional and blend infantry like nobody's business.
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Post by leotherat on Aug 31, 2018 14:06:52 GMT
Wouldn't a Raider Captain be more advantageous than the 2 Misery Cages? And can Ragman keep up with the Satyxis or are you depending on Axiara to help him along?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 31, 2018 14:18:28 GMT
Wouldn't a Raider Captain be more advantageous than the 2 Misery Cages? And can Ragman keep up with the Satyxis or are you depending on Axiara to help him along? Axiara can't help him along because he's not friendly Faction. The Kraken is the muscle in this list and you will depend mostly on him to project Dark Shroud; a huge base and RNG 2/4 make him quite easy to keep up with. A Raider Captain would help, it's up to personal preferences at that point.
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Growl
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Post by Growl on Sept 1, 2018 2:56:34 GMT
Asphyxious1: Probably the best Scourge caster. Satyxis are fast, but they don’t hit all that hard. Asphyxious1 swings Armor by 5 points every turn of the game meaning the girls can threaten just about anything. He brings a terrifying spell Assassination that you can pull the trigger on at almost any time which is great when you account for all the Feedback damage in the list. My last game into Retribution I was playing for attrition, and halfway through my second turn I realized I had already dropped Thyron to a third of his health with Feedback damage alone. Instead of continuing for attrition I just ran some girls near Thyron and Breath of Corruption’d them in the butt to kill him. I didn’t even need to Feat. Scything Touch is great on Raider Captains since they have Auto Knockdown on their Attacks. You can charge a ST’d Captain into a heavy to knock it down, Parasite it, & all of the Gunslingers can shoot into it at effective Pow 15 and can use Heart Seeker instead of Black Penny. Deller how does Gaspy1 deliver them safely? I know they are hard to hit and stuff, do you just rely on their innate high DEF, immunity to blasts, etc.? Any thoughts also on dealing with covering fire templates and similar auto hitting stuff that can get in the way of the Satyxis getting around? One solution obviously would be not to use them against those types of lists, but any other thoughts? Also, I’ve found Denny’s FEAT to be very helpful in both protecting the Satyxis and in also making things easier to take down. I know you have explained a lot about why you think Gaspy1 is better, and I find your ideas very intriguing and good, but could you possibly explain your position more?
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 2, 2018 1:10:25 GMT
Asphyxious1: Probably the best Scourge caster. Satyxis are fast, but they don’t hit all that hard. Asphyxious1 swings Armor by 5 points every turn of the game meaning the girls can threaten just about anything. He brings a terrifying spell Assassination that you can pull the trigger on at almost any time which is great when you account for all the Feedback damage in the list. My last game into Retribution I was playing for attrition, and halfway through my second turn I realized I had already dropped Thyron to a third of his health with Feedback damage alone. Instead of continuing for attrition I just ran some girls near Thyron and Breath of Corruption’d them in the butt to kill him. I didn’t even need to Feat. Scything Touch is great on Raider Captains since they have Auto Knockdown on their Attacks. You can charge a ST’d Captain into a heavy to knock it down, Parasite it, & all of the Gunslingers can shoot into it at effective Pow 15 and can use Heart Seeker instead of Black Penny. Deller how does Gaspy1 deliver them safely? I know they are hard to hit and stuff, do you just rely on their innate high DEF, immunity to blasts, etc.? Any thoughts also on dealing with covering fire templates and similar auto hitting stuff that can get in the way of the Satyxis getting around? One solution obviously would be not to use them against those types of lists, but any other thoughts? Also, I’ve found Denny’s FEAT to be very helpful in both protecting the Satyxis and in also making things easier to take down. I know you have explained a lot about why you think Gaspy1 is better, and I find your ideas very intriguing and good, but could you possibly explain your position more? So there’s a few options you have, and it honestly depends on what you’re playing against. The first thing to remember is that Breath of Corruption isn’t just a pow 12 to everything under the AoE, it also leaves behind a cloud. While it’s not as easy to block off LoS with Breath of Corruption clouds as it is with Caustic Mist, you can block off quite a bit when you factor in the central LoS blocking terrain feature. The other thing that’s important to factor in when it comes to delivery is what you’re going up against, and how you’re going to kill it. For example when playing against someone like Haley3 the answer to how do you deliver Satyxis is you don’t. The Girls are going to be killing very little in that matchup. Their job is to run screaming across the table and set the line of engagement on the opponent’s side of the table. They’re probably going to kill very little themselves, and their job is to just run, jam, and make themselves difficult to remove while keeping your opponent away from scenario elements. Asphyxious1 does the killing himself with the Pow 5 from his Feat, and drifting tons of Breath of Corruptions all over the Trenchers, they’re armor 13 so if they’re under the AoE it Forces tough. Parasited Trenchers are Armor 10, the Feat Forces them to tough on 6s. I used the same strategy when testing into a Sylvestro Crucible Guard list with Double Rocketmen & Double Dragon Breath Rockets. I just ran the girls into Melee to engage his guns, and drifted Breath of Corruptions all over the Rocketmen and when I feat they die on 7s. The only Attacks my Satyxis Raiders made all game we’re Free Strikes against models that tried to run past them to contest. Into a more armor focused list like Primal Terrors, Armored Korp, or Band of Heroes you don’t really need delivery since those lists are heavily Melee focused. Just run 2-3 Girls per Raider unit ahead of everyone else so that if your opponent tries to charge in he can only get a max of 3 Girls. Most people won’t risk free strikes from Satyxis unless they’re desperately trying to contest because of the Crit Knockdown. But the armor brick lists don’t typically have great methods of clearing Satyxis Raiders from range, so you tend to either get the alpha strike, or they Alpha you with Melee which you can mitigate the damage from with proper spacing. Into Bricks you rely on chain Weapon + Scything Touch + Parasite to bypass as much of the armor as possible. As for auto hitting effects it very much depends on what the effect is, and if there’s a way to play around it. Effects like Covering Fire are rare, & can be played around pretty easily. Some of them, like the Conquest’s Creeping Barrage we can just ignore because it’s blast damage. Others like the Covering Fire on Suppression Tankers, Manticores, & Trencher Chain Guns (nobody plays the Cyclone) we need to move around. Now in the case of the Trencher Chain Gun & Manticore this isn’t a big deal since the game plan into Ret & Gravediggers is usually “Run the Raiders” and have Asphyxious1 do the workin those cases Covering Fire is just a mild annoyance. The Suppression Tanker is a little trickier since we do need our raiders to do work into Armored Korp. Now the first important thing to remember is Covering Fire is a *action so they’ll only ever have 2 Covering Fire walls. The second thing to remember is Covering Fire is an ability that’s tied to the gun, so if the model is engaged it can’t use Covering Fire. Only the Strike Tanker got Duel Attack, the Suppression Tanker didn’t. Forcing the Tanker to Bulldoze girls away from it & protect itself with Covering Fire means it’s not protecting everything else. 2 Wall Templets of death are not going to protect an entire Armored Korp list, especially when every Satyxis Raider & Bloodwitch is potentially lethal. Ambush is also your friend here. It’s very hard to Wall off Ambushing Bloodwitches with Covering Fire. The auto hitting effects you really need to worry about are the ones like Breath of Corruption, Electro Leap, or Blast templates that cause continuous Fire & corrosion. Now whether you can drop Asphyxious1 Scourge into list’s that have these elements is heavily dependent on who needs to do the work, Asphyxious1 or the Girls, and how much auto hitting does the opponent actually have. For example a list like Rasheth Double Turtle has Breath of Corruption, but it’s not that big of a deal since he can only ever throw out two Breaths a turn. With proper spacing you can avoid taking too many casualties, and the girls kill Turtles easily when they’re -5 Armor. Into a matchup like the Asphyxious1 mirror it’s also not a big deal. Even though Asphyxious1 can put out 4 BoCs on Feat Turn he’s likely playing in Ghost Fleet or Scourge himself meaning you can get just as much work done with your Asphyxious1, and it doesn’t really matter that your girls are dropping like flies. The kinds of lists you need basically need to dodge with Asphyxious1 Scourge are the ones like Krueger2 Bones. Krueger2 can put out 2 Lightning Storms a turn himself which are just as effective as Breath of Corruption at killing Satyxis since it’s not Blast damage, and leave behind no go zones that basically auto kill any girls that enter. Additionally he’ll probably have at least two sources of Geomancy for an additional 2 Lightning Storms a Turn, so he can kill a lot of girls, and deny a lot of board space. Bones is also a matchup where you need the girls to do the work, since Asphyxious1 can’t spell an army of Wolds to death.
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Post by leotherat on Sept 2, 2018 1:33:24 GMT
Very interesting write up. Who do you use as your second list if you have your Gaspy1 Broken coast as your first list?
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Growl
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Post by Growl on Sept 2, 2018 1:51:24 GMT
Deller WOW! I really appreciate your insights and the way you take the time to explain things thoroughly and well. Thanks so much! I was recently at NOVA, and had Denny1 Satyxis and Skarre1 Dark Host. I played Skarre each time, because into each matchup I felt that she overall had the edge. I didn’t feel that Denny really brought enough of a difference that made her stand out, but from hearing your thoughts on Gaspy1, I guess the difference is that he can actually get more work done himself, while Denny1 post nerf lost a little of her punch. In my previous games with her, I very much felt cornered into slinging debuffs, but felt very limited that she had ultimately very little offensive power herself. As leotherat asked, what do you pair it with? It’s possible that I will still feel locked into Skarre1, but that could also just be a me problem.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 2, 2018 2:59:21 GMT
Deller WOW! I really appreciate your insights and the way you take the time to explain things thoroughly and well. Thanks so much! I was recently at NOVA, and had Denny1 Satyxis and Skarre1 Dark Host. I played Skarre each time, because into each matchup I felt that she overall had the edge. I didn’t feel that Denny really brought enough of a difference that made her stand out, but from hearing your thoughts on Gaspy1, I guess the difference is that he can actually get more work done himself, while Denny1 post nerf lost a little of her punch. In my previous games with her, I very much felt cornered into slinging debuffs, but felt very limited that she had ultimately very little offensive power herself. As leotherat asked, what do you pair it with? It’s possible that I will still feel locked into Skarre1, but that could also just be a me problem. I really haven’t liked Deneghra1 post nerfs. She’s still an incredibly powerful caster, but I’ve found myself dropping her in favor of other Casters a majority of the time. Asphyxious1’s big edge over her is the fact that he can clear high defense, low armor troops himself with his Feat and Breath of Corruption while Deneghra1 only’s real tool to do work herself is Venom which still needs to hit. Even with The Withering and Crippling Grasp she can still struggle into extreme defense skews like Haley3 Gravediggers & Defense 18 Rocketmen. She can debuff defense which Asphyxious1 can’t, but she still relies on her troops to do the work when that’s the case, and when Gunslingers still need 7s or 8s to hit Trenchers & Rocketmen even when you’ve feated on them and tagged them with a CG, it’s not great. Asphyxious1 can deal with those by just bypassing the need to hit. As for list pairs I’m not 100% sold that there is a best pair, but the closest thing to a best pair is probably Asphyxious3 9 Slayers, I’m just not 100% sure because I don’t play that list as I find it boring as dirt to play. What you’re really looking for in a pair is a list that can handle 2 things. Spell denial and massed accurate or auto hitting damage. When it comes to spell denial I’m not talking about things like Doom Reavers, Rasheth, or the Chior of Menoth. You can play around those easily by either killing off the Choir boys before going after Protectorate jacks, walking within 8” of a Turtle to debuff it then Teleporting to safety, or drifting Breath of Corruptions into Doom Reavers by targeting non spell immune models. I’m talking about Spell Denial like a Woldwrath that you need to debuff to kill & that’s always immune to spells, Kromac1’s Bestial, or and high armored model with the new and improved Goreshade4 with his FM: Arcane Vortex. There’s no way to play around those. You just can’t rely on spells in those cases. The only way Asphyxious1 is going to win those games is likely assassination. And if the caster shuts down spell casting like Goreshade4 or Kromac1, good luck. Now you might not even need to worry about spell denial, because the good news is hard spell denial like Kromac1 & Woldwrath aren’t very popular. If you do need to worry about them though, Goreshade4 is likely going to see a major surge in popularity once the CID changes hit, it’s best not to pair Asphyxious1 with another debuff or spellslinging caster like one of the Deneghras or Scaverous. The second thing you want to keep in mind are the lists that have tons of low power high accuracy/auto hitting damage especially if they require Satyxis Raiders to do work. The Matchups like Kruger2 Bones or Nemo3 Double Storm Strider where they can kill swaths of low armored Infantry easily, and Asphyxious1’s path to victory is Assassination or bust because he’s not going to kill Striders or Wolds himself. Because these are the considerations when building a list pair I would avoid pairing Asphyxious1 Scourge with Ghost Fleet, Infernal Machines, or a second Scourge list. Any list that can chew through Asphyxious1’s Satyxis can probably chew through Satyxis under any caster, Thralls, and Revenants with ease. As a result I would look towards pairing it with Slaughter Fleet, Black Industries, or Dark Host since the models in those themes have a combination of higher armor & more boxes so they won’t completely fold to the same mass anti Infantry that Satyxis Fold to. The list pairs I would primarily look to are the ones that use Casters that don’t rely on debuffs and can play well in one of those 3 themes. I’d probably go with either Skarre1, Skarre3, Asphyxious3, Venethrax, Terminus, Goreshade1, Goreshade3, Mortenebra2, or Aiakos2. These Casters are primarily buff focused, so spell denial doesn’t hurt them as much, and they play well in either Slaughter Fleet, Black Industries, or Dark Host. I’m personally testing different Skarre3 Slaughter Fleet builds and various Black Industries builds to pair with Asphyxious1, because I find Dark Host boring to play & I love the aesthetics of Boaty McBoatface, the Blighted Trolls, and Cryx jacks.
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juckto
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Post by juckto on Sept 3, 2018 0:30:14 GMT
Hey Deller, I finished putting your thoughts on Warmachine University like we discussed. Cripes, when you put it all together, you've really written a novel on the subject. Anyway, I had a couple of questions: What does your Asphyixous Scourge list look like? I tried plugging one together but points got a bit tight, and I ended up with double Misery Cages just to use up an awkward last two points. Do you put Saxon in so you can keep up Force Barrier as much as possible? Do you put Cankerworm and/or Bararthrum in the list? Secondly, on the subject of "Casters that do something differnt in Scourge", what's your feelings on Goreshade1? He doesn't swing ARM as hard as any of the others, but does bring a unit of Banes so that sort of compensates. Then you get the same Bane-Descreator-Vortex Blast synergy as Agathia gives. Lastly, ambushing Witches + Soulgate seems like it could be a bit of janky fun. Like, putting Barathrum in the enemy backlines and threatening Countercharges.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 3, 2018 6:46:00 GMT
Hey Deller , I finished putting your thoughts on Warmachine University like we discussed. Cripes, when you put it all together, you've really written a novel on the subject. Anyway, I had a couple of questions: What does your Asphyixous Scourge list look like? I tried plugging one together but points got a bit tight, and I ended up with double Misery Cages just to use up an awkward last two points. Do you put Saxon in so you can keep up Force Barrier as much as possible? Do you put Cankerworm and/or Bararthrum in the list? Secondly, on the subject of "Casters that do something differnt in Scourge", what's your feelings on Goreshade1? He doesn't swing ARM as hard as any of the others, but does bring a unit of Banes so that sort of compensates. Then you get the same Bane-Descreator-Vortex Blast synergy as Agathia gives. Lastly, ambushing Witches + Soulgate seems like it could be a bit of janky fun. Like, putting Barathrum in the enemy backlines and threatening Countercharges. So my original build was: Theme: Scourge of the Broken Coast 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Iron Lich Asphyxious - WJ: +28 - Satyxis Blood Priestess - PC: 4 - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Corruptor - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) Axiara Wraithblade - PC: 0 Satyxis Raider Captain - PC: 0 Severa Blacktide - PC: 0 Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 4 Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 4 Satyxis Blood Witches - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Satyxis Blood Hag - PC: 4 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 About 50% of the time I had the Corruptor, the other 50% I used a single Desecrator, but the more I played it the more I preferred the Corruptor since Asphyxious1 can’t trigger the Accumulator, and the extra Arc Nodes & Auto hitting non Blast pie plates are nice. With the change over to SR 2018 I added an extra raider captain because I wanted the extra solo on Mirage so now I’m on: Theme: Scourge of the Broken Coast 3 / 3 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army Iron Lich Asphyxious - WJ: +28 - Satyxis Blood Priestess - PC: 4 - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Corruptor - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) Satyxis Raider Captain - PC: 4 Satyxis Raider Captain - PC: 4 Axiara Wraithblade - PC: 0 Severa Blacktide - PC: 0 Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 4 Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 4 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Satyxis Blood Witches - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Satyxis Blood Hag - PC: 0 I know some people prefer running Eilish over the Blood Priestess. I personally prefer the free upkeep & Sucker! over Puppet Master and the ability to remove offensive upkeeps without stabbing a girl. It’s probably a meta call, if you’re expecting to drop Asphyxious1 Scourge into Casters with brutal offensive upkeeps like Rebuke go Eilish, if you’re planning to drop him into lists with extreme Ranged assassinations go Priestess. Personally the only Rebuke caster I see regularly is Krueger2, and I don’t drop Asphyxious1 into him anyway, and I see a lot of Ranged focused lists in my meta. I tried Cankerworm & Barathrum, I just didn’t feel like I ever needed them. Barathrum is great and all, but I don’t really need a dedicated heavy hitter when I can get Satyxis Raiders swinging at effective pow 16. Cankerworm is kinda the same. He’s great, but the list is tight for points, and he doesn’t really bring anything I super needed. I never found I needed Saxon. Yea it sucks having to pray for Pathfinder and not Whiping Winds, but if I’m praying for Pathfinder it’s so I can charge something, and if I really need that extra defense to survive Axiara can give the unit Repo 3 so they can make sure they end the turn engaged. I haven’t actually tried Goreshade1 Scourge, nor thought about it much. He’s not a caster I really play often. While he can do the Desecrator trick like Agathia, he needs to Feat early to get the Banes out and in position, which is really the exact opposite of how he actually wants to Feat. The longer you can wait to use it the better it tends to be. It might work, but I’m not incredibly sold on it. His kit really doesn’t do much for Satyxis.
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