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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 23, 2018 14:48:26 GMT
Cygnar has had 2, PoM has had 2, Trolls has had 2, Circle is about to have its 2nd. Not really even sure how to count Ret. That’s all I can think of right now, but this is hardly cryx privilege. I can't remember a Cygnaran CID other than trenchers and same for Trolls - can only remember the Northkin CID. Sons of the Tempest and some gun mage stuff was included in a CID along with Llaelese Resistance, Will Work for Food and Faithful masses, as well as the 12 factions of Christmas models, how do I know all this...I have the files saved at work
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Aug 23, 2018 15:16:06 GMT
Cygnar has had 2, PoM has had 2, Trolls has had 2, Circle is about to have its 2nd. Not really even sure how to count Ret. That’s all I can think of right now, but this is hardly cryx privilege. I can't remember a Cygnaran CID other than trenchers and same for Trolls - can only remember the Northkin CID. Cygnar had a sons of the tempest cid and iirc trolls had adjustments to Kriel company (either during battle engines or 12 factions?)
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Aug 24, 2018 12:51:54 GMT
Cryx was still terrible into gunlines back then. And gunlines were basically 80% of the very early meta. Stuff like Ossyan or VladRockets. Cryx wasn't generally bad, just into what everyone played. Then the gun lines got chased away by their natural predators and decent terrain rules.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Aug 24, 2018 12:59:25 GMT
Black industries didn't go through CID, right? Slayer did but by himself he isn't appealing... His good points fall over to the lack of protection cryx likes to play with. I noticed that the community seems a lot more confortable with Cryx dominating than other factions. Do you guys agree? Resigned =/= comfortable. Cryx is one of their most popular factions (though chicken/egg on that one) and on top of that, it's their head developer's favorite faction. So the likelihood of it ever being taken out of the top 3 or so factions in the game for any extended period of time seems quite unlikely. Personally, I think we'll likely have to content ourselves with a yearly nerf of whatever the new hotness is after Cryx overperforms at WTC each year, to be followed by PP releasing something else which then becomes the new new hotness for the following year. It's a load of bull, but that's pretty much how it is. There is a very vocal minority who honestly believe that Cryx and Cygnar are literally supposed to be stronger than the other factions and that it's a problem when they're not. Almost none of them would cop to that, but if you look closely, you'll see that is exactly their position. Several of the new models also got out of CID too good. Smog Belchers are only the clearest example. Even Skarre 3 doesn't do any specific thing that is really game-breaking, she's just all-around too good, like Kolgrimma while I'm being so blunt.
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Post by harrism on Aug 24, 2018 13:01:15 GMT
True, but that doesn't change the fact that Cryx has had 2 CIDs covering 4 themes, compared to... Actually, I'm not even sure any other faction has had a second theme done yet. Some haven't had any yet. Cygnar has had 2, PoM has had 2, Trolls has had 2, Circle is about to have its 2nd. Not really even sure how to count Ret. That’s all I can think of right now, but this is hardly cryx privilege. Faithful masses was hardly a true Cid, they just needed a theme to put the new Paladin solo into.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Aug 24, 2018 13:03:58 GMT
TBH Jason Soles said at the release of MK3 that Cryx was fine. Perhaps it wasn't simply damage control but his opinion. I got the real sense that the community preassured for a Cryx powercreep and calmed down when "order" was restaured and cryx became a powerhouse again. Release Mk3 Cryx probably was fine if they were playtesting it with themes in mind on SR 2017. The problem was for the first 6 months of Mk3 the playerbase was playing Themeless on SR 2016. Mk3 Cryx was absolute dogshit on that scenario packet, and had almost no game into Casters like release Caine2 or Ossyan without Theme benefits such as Banes gain Prowl, Heavy jacks gain Carapace, or added recursion to help recover the massive losses you’re going to receive. If Mk3 had just released with a scenario packet that was actually designed for it and the Theme Forces we have now, the Dark Host CID & the January 2017 Cryx errata (Mortenebra1 & maybe Asphyxious2 would probably have still been fixed in that errata) probably wouldn’t have happened. I can't remember the last time I agreed with you as much. Hungerford's decision to delay implementation of the new scenario system did more harm than good.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 24, 2018 13:10:29 GMT
Release Mk3 Cryx probably was fine if they were playtesting it with themes in mind on SR 2017. The problem was for the first 6 months of Mk3 the playerbase was playing Themeless on SR 2016. Mk3 Cryx was absolute dogshit on that scenario packet, and had almost no game into Casters like release Caine2 or Ossyan without Theme benefits such as Banes gain Prowl, Heavy jacks gain Carapace, or added recursion to help recover the massive losses you’re going to receive. If Mk3 had just released with a scenario packet that was actually designed for it and the Theme Forces we have now, the Dark Host CID & the January 2017 Cryx errata (Mortenebra1 & maybe Asphyxious2 would probably have still been fixed in that errata) probably wouldn’t have happened. I can't remember the last time I agreed with you as much. Hungerford's decision to delay implementation of the new scenario system did more harm than good. Yeah, they should have just bit the bullet and released SR 17 with MK3, we had the same packet for 18 months in the end, I was flippin bored to tears by the end
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 24, 2018 14:09:40 GMT
I just counted things up, it looks like 27 players did not take Lich3 when they could, which shakes out to be be just over half. So about half of the players that could bring Lich3 because someone hadn't already brought it on their team did so.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 24, 2018 16:05:34 GMT
A big part of it is that as PP has gotten bigger/higher overhead it is just hard for them to not to tweak the rules to move models. It is a dangerous path but as someone who signs the front of the check I totally understand why this sometimes makes sense.
Consider - The blockhouse's reduction in points which was untested and unexpected 28% poing reduction just screams "Shit - we are not moving a model, take at ASAP!")
Now before folks get on the "it is appropriately costed at 10." please note there are DOZENS of models that are inappropriately costed. This one, howvever, is new and needed to be moved.....and this reduction was AFTER a CID where the need for this reduction wasn't really hammered home in the write ups.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 24, 2018 16:15:33 GMT
A big part of it is that as PP has gotten bigger/higher overhead it is just hard for them to not to tweak the rules to move models. It is a dangerous path but as someone who signs the front of the check I totally understand why this sometimes makes sense. Consider - The blockhouse's reduction in points which was untested and unexpected 28% poing reduction just screams "Shit - we are not moving a model, take at ASAP!") Now before folks get on the "it is appropriately costed at 10." please note there are DOZENS of models that are inappropriately costed. This one, howvever, is new and needed to be moved.....and this reduction was AFTER a CID where the need for this reduction wasn't really hammered home in the write ups. Gotta make that sweet dolla!
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 24, 2018 16:52:28 GMT
I mean..so?
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Post by gargs454 on Aug 24, 2018 16:58:05 GMT
A big part of it is that as PP has gotten bigger/higher overhead it is just hard for them to not to tweak the rules to move models. It is a dangerous path but as someone who signs the front of the check I totally understand why this sometimes makes sense. Consider - The blockhouse's reduction in points which was untested and unexpected 28% poing reduction just screams "Shit - we are not moving a model, take at ASAP!") Now before folks get on the "it is appropriately costed at 10." please note there are DOZENS of models that are inappropriately costed. This one, howvever, is new and needed to be moved.....and this reduction was AFTER a CID where the need for this reduction wasn't really hammered home in the write ups. Gotta make that sweet dolla! Which unfortunately is fair, considering they are a business after all -- even if it does lead to "broken" models/themes/etc. Note: I still prefer a perfectly balanced game, I'm just saying I understand the sentiment on the business's side. If they don't sell product, they go out of business. On a related note though, one thing that it seems has pretty much always been the case is that Warmahordes is a game where the list makes a huge, huge difference in the outcome. My question is: What is it about Warmahordes that leads to this? Is it a reflection of the Warcaster/lock model? Something else? I ask because I don't have a ton of experience in other wargames on which to draw from or even knowledge as to whether or not this is common. The only other game I have much experience in is Infinity which, curiously enough, doesn't have this same issue despite having numerous different factions that each tend to have a unique feel to them. The best I can really think of is that with respect to Infinity, while the range of abilities are not evenly spread out among the factions (i.e. some factions are really good at Hacking while others are not -- and one faction doesn't even have a hacker) not having those abilities doesn't neuter a faction against that other list. So in the hacker scenario, a the faction without a hacker is largely immune to hacking, so not having one doesn't really hurt (i.e. they don't have to counter the enemy hackers because that counter is built-in). But the enemy hackers can still do more than just hack, so they aren't rendered useless against the hacking immune faction. Warmahordes by contrast doesn't quite follow that. Look at the immunities for instance.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Aug 24, 2018 17:49:10 GMT
All asymmetrical games have this problem, even board games where differences between factions are minimal and often mean just one or two special rules/faction - there are best/worst factions even in finely tuned euros like Terra Mystica or Scythe. The more asymmetry, the more imbalance. That's why wargames have the most problems with that - because their main selling point is characterful factions and variety of choices.
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 24, 2018 18:02:19 GMT
All asymmetrical games have this problem, even board games where differences between factions are minimal and often mean just one or two special rules/faction - there are best/worst factions even in finely tuned euros like Terra Mystica or Scythe. The more asymmetry, the more imbalance. That's why wargames have the most problems with that - because their main selling point is characterful factions and variety of choices. I'm willing to bet that 75% of your posts involve board games.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Aug 24, 2018 18:18:23 GMT
Video games which have the same problem have much better tools to deal with them : first, mass statistics from thousands of matches; second, patches hit all users at the same time and change the game for everyone. That's why imbalance in asymmetrical video games isn't comparable in my opinion.
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